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27 (31.4%)

No

59 (68.6%)

Total Members Voted: 86

[ancistrus]

Let me be blunt, I dislike graphics packs. Whenever someone who uses them posts a screenshot, I have no idea what is going on there, and it annoys me. I have been bored for a couple hours now and I got this very vague idea of writing, for lack of a better word, a paper aimed at DF newbies, to discourage them from using graphics. I admit I haven't really thought this through. But before even starting, I would like to hear your opinions on whether this idea is just a bit silly, or just plain stupid. Whether I should bother, or not.

[McDonald]

I think it's an okay idea, more or less everybody played on the default tileset, so everyoby could understand screenshots.

[Ghoul]

Just my two pennies worth.

Honestly, when I first began playing DF, I really, really wanted to play it with the default graphics. Unfortunately I was never able to really do this properly, because after hours of continuous gameplay, the letters would begin to do my head in, and I would literally end up with eye ache, forcing me to stop managing my Dwarves!

It could be to do with my high-res screen, and just the sheer number of flashing letters that were staring at me, but honestly, without the graphics packs, I would probably be unable to play DF for any longer that twenty minutes at a time...

So for that reason alone, I don't think putting down people's brilliant work on making tilesets for this awesome game a good idea. But saying that, I can completely understand the attractiveness of playing in ascii... But Its just not for me.

[ancistrus]

Just my two pennies worth.

Honestly, when I first began playing DF, I really, really wanted to play it with the default graphics. Unfortunately I was never able to really do this properly, because after hours of continuous gameplay, the letters would begin to do my head in, and I would literally end up with eye ache, forcing me to stop managing my Dwarves!

It could be to do with my high-res screen, and just the sheer number of flashing letters that were staring at me, but honestly, without the graphics packs, I would probably be unable to play DF for any longer that twenty minutes at a time...

So for that reason alone, I don't think putting down people's brilliant work on making tilesets for this awesome game a good idea. But saying that, I can completely understand the attractiveness of playing in ascii... But Its just not for me.

I assume that most people who use graphics have never even tried to use the default tileset, so your 2p are quite valuable, thanks.

[pushy]

Err...why? Why do/would you want to discourage newbies from using graphics packs? To be honest, as I was reading your post it kind of came across like you're wanting to put them on a guilt trip because they might not want to play the game with the default tileset and graphics (and your post that you're jumping to the conclusion that they're not even trying it with the default graphics first strongly suggests it'd be a very bad idea for you to go on a rant about something like this - that's a big assumption to make, and one that isn't true of a significant number of players)

It's all personal preference. I don't really see the point in lecturing to those who may choose to use them. Let's be honest, a good one can help make the game a touch more user-friendly - creature graphic packs let you tell at a glance whether you're looking at a dog or deer rather than just seeing a brown 'd'. In the middle of a siege you can tell whether the group heading towards your front gate is a squad of goblins or just some wandering groundhogs or gibbons instead of just seeing a group of 'g' characters. At the end of the day, it's a single-player game and every player is entitled to play the game however they choose, including whether or not they wish to mod it.

[Astrid]

I am regularily switching between classic and grafic tilesets, what i can confirm in my case is
that the right grafics are indeed more eye friendly on the long run and with that more comfortable.

[WoobMonkey]

I've tried nearly every tileset out there, at some point or another.  Yes, that includes the default ASCII.

That said, I find myself using Phoebus or Obsidian as my default go-tos.  Probably because, as a new player, I learned a great deal from watching YTube LPs - and most players were/are using Phoebus or Ironhand.

I'm not sure that standing in the middle of the street, yelling 'get a horse!' at passing motorists, would be all that productive.  What may be better, and still acheive your aims, is to write a piece on why you, personally, love the basic ASCII tileset, and how you, personally, find it superior to other options.

Instead of telling others how they ought to play with their toys, why not tell them how you play with yours?  If others agree with your point of view, or see inspiration in it, they're likely to try it out.  If not, you still just come off as a DF fan, instead of another would-be internet dictator.

My pennies, for what they're worth.

[ancistrus]

Pushy: why? If I think deeply about it, I guess I am just sad at how some people perceive DF in the wrong light. A lot of people talk about it like it is the most complicated and difficult thing ever. This obscures reality. I think that DF has become a game that is defined by its difficulty rather than its enjoyability. It is easy to come to the conclusion that you should not try DF at all, because it is just "so insanely hard". The graphics thing is a more specific instance of the same problem.

[itisnotlogical]

Ultimately, the problem I have with tilesets is that they're too cluttered and non-specific. Default tiles have bright contrasting colors and plenty of black space between characters, whereas graphics typically mute the colors, which means objects that share characters are harder to tell apart. I can't ever decide on a single tileset to use though, so it's easier for me to just stick with vanilla.

[doublestrafe]

There is one standard set of characters available to everyone, with a wiki to define what every character represents. A lot of people have made different pictures to replace those, which are all different and arbitrary. It's very inconsiderate to pick one at random and just expect everybody to understand it. If you're going to post screenshots as a diagram of a neat thing you built, use the default.

[PrimusRibbus]

Used ASCII in 40d, switched to Ironhand around DF2010. Switching to tiles greatly reduced eyestrain on large monitors for me, and made things easier to identify while scrolling quickly (I can ID by shape MUCH faster than I can ID by color). ASCII is also completely useless for my friend who is colorblind and cant tell the difference between the same letter in different colors (switching to a colorblind palette only helps so much).

To be frank, most other Roguelike communities moved on from getting upset about tiles years ago. DF's community is already viewed as elitist, and I can't see a paper like that encouraging people to try the game.

[Boltgun]

You are likely going to write an elaborate version of 'just play the way I want you to because personal opinions' and it is advisable that you give newbies tales of your forts instead. With ASCII screenshots.

PS: I had no issues reading screens in any tilesets out there. Utimatly it's always the same content.

[sal880612m]

Pushy: why? If I think deeply about it, I guess I am just sad at how some people perceive DF in the wrong light. A lot of people talk about it like it is the most complicated and difficult thing ever. This obscures reality. I think that DF has become a game that is defined by its difficulty rather than its enjoyability. It is easy to come to the conclusion that you should not try DF at all, because it is just "so insanely hard". The graphics thing is a more specific instance of the same problem.

The ASCII makes it harder to get into the game for most people and it will continue to do so as time goes on. Losing the need to interpret or check everything does help and once you have the basics down it is easier to transition to the ASCII because you have a grasp of how to do things and what to do in general. Someone is far more likely try the game if they can understand at a glance when you show them a picture than if you have to explain to them what is going on.

I agree with WoobMonkey. Anyway I am having trouble not treating this like someone is trying to start a flame war so I am going to post this and leave and hope Toady sees the negative potential hear and kills this thread.

[Button]

Default tiles have bright contrasting colors

Colors which you consider brightly contrasting are not so to everyone. I'm (partially) colorblind. Graphics packs allow me to differentiate units at a glance which I would otherwise find literally indistinguishable from each other without loo(k)ing every time.

The colors of the Phoebus graphic pack are, perhaps counterintuitively, easier for me to distinguish from each other than the colors of the default ASCII. On top of that, graphics packs include different sprites for dwarves of different roles, which is friggin game-changing when you can't tell many of the dwarven roles apart by color.

There is one standard set of characters available to everyone, with a wiki to define what every character represents

Colorblindness is caused by genetic defects in the color-sensing proteins of the eye. Characters which are indistinguishable in a screenshot will be equally indistinguishable on the wiki. No amount of wikiing or ASCII-experience will ever make differentiating (dark) green units from (dark) cyan/red/brown units any easier for me.

It's very inconsiderate to pick one at random and just expect everybody to understand it. If you're going to post screenshots as a diagram of a neat thing you built, use the default.

By this logic, it's at least equally inconsiderate to post screenshots using the default graphics when color-blind Dorfers may be literally physically incapable of understanding them.

But as it turns out, having to figure out a few characters in a screenshot by context, or by asking for clarification, is not a huge inconvenience. Even a tileset-user like me can do it. I'm sure a hardcore elite ASCII Dorfer like you can too.

[ancistrus]

Sal, at first I thought you were being unresonable and oversensitive in your accusation...after all I did state that I am not sure if this is a good idea and that I am looking for opinions. But I am beginning to see your point, some of the posts are passive-aggressive. And it is always too easy to get angry over the internet and overreact. So please, keep things civil.

That said, thanks everyone who posted so far- I never really understood why people used tilesets and there are some vauable insights here.

Woobmonkey, what you said I should do is basically what I had in mind. In the morning, I was thinking, hypothetically, how I would write a beginners guide to DF, and I came to the part where I would mention graphics. I imagined a reader who believes that he has to use a graphic pack and I thought about how I would convince him that he really doesn't need it and that he should give the ASCII a try. This is not how I put it in the first post, but ...sigh here comes passive-agressiveness: I usually tend to assume good things about people and I expect the same from them. So I usually (this post being different) don't bother to be as nice and as politically correct as possible.

Please try not to react to this post, it is a derailment.