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Yes, please give us Vikings and Ninjas and Knights.

Yes, but only if it doesnt take too much work.

Maybe better to only make one civ, as close to vanilla DF humans as possible.

Maybe better to only make one civ, as close to MDF humans as possible.

No, I dont like it because it doesnt fit a procedually generated fantasy world.

No, I dont like it, because... (please post the reasons)

[Meph]

Yes, thats intended. The target is hit by dragonfire (the exploding cannon ball), and it melts everything. Should affect frost giants and megabeasts as well, and you get no megabeast souls and no bifrost that way.

[Emperor]

I see.
What about making different types of bullets? Musketeers shooting bullets covered in poison could make them more deadly. Or, perhaps, bullets blessed by the paladins to make them effective against undead? There are many possibilities.


   

[Meph]

I dont really see gunslinging paladins. They are more on the melee side. Bullets can be coated in poison by the drow workshop.

[Emperor]

Paladins are only blessing the bullets. They could be used by sort of witch-hunter, or something like that, who also would track vampires in your town - a valuable addition to any bigger town.

I'm just throwing random ideas - you do not must do it all, or even read it.

[Guthbug]

Muskets feel a little weak. A musket-wielding hunter with "competent" skills took 47 lead bullets to bring down a chimpanzee.

A kobold thief evaded an entire squad of crack riflemen because his silk cloak kept deflecting all of the bullets. Finally, out of ammo, the commander stepped forward and clubbed him to death with his rifle.

[Guthbug]

With the new version I deviated from my normal "hunting camp" village. Humans absolutely seem to need a renewable, for sale resource to survive. Everything costs money, and some of it costs money on a continual basis.

Now we embarked in a tundra that has a lot of iron and gold. We're attempting to set up a mining town. It's rough. Unprocessed ore is not worth very much to the stall merchants, though good quality armor and weapons are worth a lot to the caravans. We may end up in a situation where we process the metal, sell to caravans for raw resources, and then sell raw resources to the stall economy.

[Guthbug]

Metal stall is way out of whack.

Sell 4 iron bars for only 500 sovereigns? Better to hunt and fish than to mine.

[moseythepirate]

Metal stall is way out of whack.

Sell 4 iron bars for only 500 sovereigns? Better to hunt and fish than to mine.

I concur. In my opinion, the true path to "human-ness" isn't mining materials for your craftsmen, but selling them to pay OTHER races craftsmen.

[Guthbug]

Metal stall is way out of whack.

Sell 4 iron bars for only 500 sovereigns? Better to hunt and fish than to mine.

I concur. In my opinion, the true path to "human-ness" isn't mining materials for your craftsmen, but selling them to pay OTHER races craftsmen.

That's my understanding of the human theme as well. It's all about economics as opposed to the eudaimonia of perfect craftsmanship of the dwarves, or the oneness of nature with the elves.

There are certain basic goods which form a starter economy and would be needful in any fort in any environment:

1. Agricultural - meat (fish), hides, plants, food, alcohol, lumber
2. Ores - raw ores, processed bars, potentially stone, but certainly lignite, peat, anthracite should be highly valuable. gems should be worth a lot, lot more
3. processed goods - clothing, armor, weapons

I think the agricultural has been tweaked to a pretty good balance now. Meat is definitely appropriate, fish is still good but it's more appropriate to reflect the proper labor cost. Plants are near balanced, though some distinction should be made between above ground and underground crops, with underground being more valuable. I haven't figured out how to sell cooked food (if you even can) and alcohol is a great money-maker if you are in a biome where you can farm.

Ores and bars are not at all yet balanced. With the numbers the way they are now, there would be no "in theme" reason for the human race to ever expand outside of the fertile biomes. Humans will endure all sorts of hardships to create a settlement in a gold-rich area, or silver, or even iron. Even copper is worth a lot, and since those are non-renewable resources on any map, they should be a lot more valuable than the renewable resources like meat, fish, and plants.

I would suggest the following:

2 copper/lead/tin unprocessed ores sell for 500 sovereigns
1 iron sells for 500
1 silver sells for 1000
1 gold sells for 1500

Processed into bars, they sell for a lot more:

1 copper/lead/tin bar for 500
1 iron for 1000
1 silver for 1500
1 gold for 2500

Marble stone is dang near perfect, but I'd cut the number in half. 2 marble stones for 500. Marble is the stone of kings and mighty palaces are built out of it.

[Guthbug]

As for the weapons and armor merchants, they are borderline useless currently.

All of the foreign weapon stalls (humans, warlocks, and goblins I've looked at so far) sell complete armor sets in various materials. The local weapon/armor stalls operate on a voucher system which is confusing until you understand it, and then when you understand it you wonder why you would bother. It is vastly better to make weapons and armor with which to buy stuff from the caravans, which can then be sold to get the sovereigns you need.

I suppose they're useful if you buy vouchers and then get enough of them to get that specific thing you wanted, but it's vastly easier just to set up a metal merchant and a smith and craft that item yourself.

[Guthbug]

My gold mining town ... water in the perfect position at the first cavern, like 18 z levels straight down. Build a well from the surface down to there, it's dry. Why? I look, and the water directly underneath straight down has frozen ... in the cavern.

[Meph]

You metal prices make no sense. 1 gold bar = 2500 gold coins? It may under no circumstance be more than 500, because 500 is what you get when you use it to make your own money. No one would ever buy a gold bar for the price of 5 gold bars.

Lets say you mine 1 metal vein, with 100 tiles. Thats 25 pieces of ore, which gives you 100 bars of metal. 100 iron bars, if you sell them, are worth 12.500 gold atm. 100 gold bars if minted into coins would be 50.000, four times the worth. I think that these prices fit.

The voucher system is pretty good to get rid of goblinite or change items. Get rid of 50 iron bows you dont need, buy iron bullets with it. (which I have to rebalance) But yes, the finished items are very expensive. BUT you dont need the foreign caravans to sell you licences first.

Your water froze, because the one tile under the well was tagged "aboveground".

[Guthbug]

I generally melt down goblinite and reforge, or I sell it to caravans. Haven't had enough invasions yet with humans to really tell how that would work.

I would think the solution to the gold bar issue is to up the number of coins you get when you mint it into coins.

As it stands, I don't think creating a mining settlement is worthwhile at all. I just abandoned mine due to the hardships involved. I'll just buy the metal I need from a stall and leave mining and forging to the dwarves.

Looked at the clothing merchant ... numbers look good if you buy cloth from caravans and then tailor it into clothes yourself. If you had to process it from rope reed or wool yarn on your own, yeesh, that would be a nightmare of micromanagement for not much gain. But that's the way it is with the other races as well ... I generally don't bother to ever create a farm for threads (even silk) because one high quality shirt will pay for an entire bin of expensive cloth.

Wood merchant isn't working. Dunno if that just hasn't been done yet or if it's in error. I'm clearly not good at reading the notes.

Gems ... one of the most valuable substances known to man but the game doesn't reflect that. (Never has. Even in vanilla. A nice silk shirt is worth 5 times that of a flawlessly cut diamond.)

[Meph]

Wood merchant is working fine on my end. What part doesnt work?

I would think the solution to the gold bar issue is to up the number of coins you get when you mint it into coins.

Impossible, its hardcoded. 500 = 1 bar.

Gem values can be raised, but obviously that would affect all races... or do you mean the gold coin costs in the merchant stalls?

[Guthbug]

Wood merchant is working fine on my end. What part doesnt work?

I would think the solution to the gold bar issue is to up the number of coins you get when you mint it into coins.

Impossible, its hardcoded. 500 = 1 bar.

Gem values can be raised, but obviously that would affect all races... or do you mean the gold coin costs in the merchant stalls?

It wouldn't set one up. I deconstructed the stall and tried again and it wouldn't construct any of the shops. I'm not sure what's wrong there but it seems to be limited to that saved game and only after the reload.

When I mention value in the human testing, I'm specifically talking about the exchange for sovereigns. So I'm talking about the exchange for sovereigns for gems. Seems low.

The number of gold coins is hardcoded in the vanilla forge workshop, but for your special engineer coin mint that is the north extension of the engineer's guild? I haven't built that one yet so I don't know what it's creation rate is.