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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[scriver]

This is why urban and vigilante warfare sucks. If people that wanted to shoot each other would quit hiding behind non-combatants (CNN reported a incidence where SOME force in a village had a line of women out in front of them as shields barricading a bridge or road) and just go out in a field and kill each other, I'd have a lot fewer problems with any of the shit going on in Ukraine.

Perfect time for a Holmgång then.

What's a Holmgång?

(I know I could edit my own post, but theres a reply in between and I'm done quoting from a few pages back).

A "holmgång" was an old Norse duel with semi-judicial status, often (as far as we can tell) used to resolve insults and such (Sorry of like trial by combat, except not involving a court). The word itself basically means "to go to an island" (or just "island-go" when translated directly ), the island in question is a symbolical place where the two duelists can fight each other without outside interference. Sometimes it was an actual island, but it might as well just be a designated place or a mat laid on the floor or something.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

https://twitter.com/howardamos/status/462946401941716992

Brilliant and expected. I repeat again: when police releases criminals  it is justifiable to neutralize them in other ways. At least those 30 will not cause mayhem anymore. Sad that those that were arrested and now released will get the second chance to kill Ukrainians

[Sergarr]

This is fascist and you know that.

[XXSockXX]

Well, apparently a pro-Russian crowd forced the police to let the prisoners go. Judging by the pictures they are not exactly peaceful, and neither were the one in the trade unions building.

An interesting piece about the pro-Russian rebels in Eastern Ukraine.

[Sheb]

Still not a good message that they were released. Not a reason to call for their death though.

[smjjames]

This is fascist and you know that.

What is, URs words (as callous as they are in calling for their death) or the people in the image?

https://twitter.com/howardamos/status/462946401941716992

Brilliant and expected. I repeat again: when police releases criminals  it is justifiable to neutralize them in other ways. At least those 30 will not cause mayhem anymore. Sad that those that were arrested and now released will get the second chance to kill Ukrainians

By 'those 30', do you mean the ones that died in the trade building? Even if all of them were pro-russian, we don't know that ALL of them were criminals.

Nor should we assume that all of those arrested and then released will kill Ukranians. This anti-Russian vs anti-Ukranian behavior is the seed which started this whole thing. Not the only seed though.

Just trying to be a voice of reason here.

[XXSockXX]

This anti-Russian vs anti-Ukranian behavior is the seed which started this whole thing.

That's actually something I found interesting in the NYT article, these pro-Russian guys they interviewed are not even all 100% for joining Russia, there is just a big divide in the country. They also cite the failed change of the language law (which we discussed a lot already here) as a turning point, as minor as that may have seemed at the time.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

You are applying peacetime logic and morals to a (pre)war situation here... I don't  want to argue here.... you are living in a country that lives in peace and will not understand.  For that enemies arrested and isolated > dead > free.

That's actually something I found interesting in the NYT article, these pro-Russian guys they interviewed are not even all 100% for joining Russia, there is just a big divide in the country. They also cite the failed change of the language law (which we discussed a lot already here) as a turning point, as minor as that may have seemed at the time.

Then why all of them call for Russian aid and use Russian flag? All that language and "oppressive junta government" is a bullshit. Even If they don't want to join Russia directly they want Russian lifestyle and ideology

[Sheb]

Because you'll use whatever aid you can get in that kind of situation? UR, what would you do? Kill anyone that wants to join Russia?

Another thing I though interesting was that they demanded a referendum. Didn't the Ukrainian government offer one already?

[XXSockXX]

That's actually something I found interesting in the NYT article, these pro-Russian guys they interviewed are not even all 100% for joining Russia, there is just a big divide in the country. They also cite the failed change of the language law (which we discussed a lot already here) as a turning point, as minor as that may have seemed at the time.

Then why all of them call for Russian aid and use Russian flag? All that language and "oppressive junta government" is a bullshit. Even If they don't want to join Russia directly they want Russian lifestyle and ideology

Yes, that is what I mean, it seems to be a difference in mentality (like how they are offended by the destruction of the Lenin statues), plus differences resulting from the language divide. It may be less about wanting to be specifically Russian and more about some kind of Soviet nostalgia (which seems to be a big thing in Russia too).

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Kill anyone that wants to join Russia?

People shouldn't be hurt for their wishes, believes or goals. But if they act (in illegal way.) to join Russia they should be arrested and jailed for the crimes. If impossible to arrest - Yes they should be killed. It is justice of a wartime.

[Sergarr]

And that right here is fascist as fuck

[smjjames]

Kill anyone that wants to join Russia?

People shouldn't be hurt for their wishes, believes or goals. But if they act (in illegal way.) to join Russia they should be arrested and jailed for the crimes. If impossible to arrest - Yes they should be killed. It is justice of a wartime.

Even those that join Russia peacefully and are peaceful protestors? Would you kill the non-combatants that joined Russia that you are unable to arrest or refuse to be arrested (and are unarmed)?

And that right here is fascist as fuck

I agree. I fear he may be slipping into a genocide mentality a little.

[XXSockXX]

(replying to older post)

The perfect way to reduce Russia's distrust of the West would be this - stop doing potentially hostile acts. Dissolve NATO or move its bases away from Russian borders, move those ABM systems to Iranian borders if they are intended to stop Iranian missiles or scrap them altogether, dissolve the NED, stop financing and supporting pro-Western opposition in Russia and countries close to Russia (I can totally imagine Ran Paul or Alex Jones running to the Russian embassy to lament about that damn American government), put Brzezinski and other anti-Russian statesmen like McCain in a retirement home with no communication devices and writing tools, dismiss the Heartland theory, stop making films and movies with Russians being the bad guys (did you know that during the Cold War, Soviet film studios haven't made even a single film with plots about evil NATO invading the USSR and brave soldiers/partisans fighting them?), and so on, and so forth. And voila!
The necessity of tightening up screws in the society to protect it against someone becomes rather questionable if that someone doesn't appears to be intending to attack you in any way. Once it will be perfectly clear that the West has absolutely no hostile intentions against Russia, Putin will become obsolete.

I agree with a lot of that in theory, but I think that a lot of mistakes were made in the 90s and now it may be too late, at least for the coming decades. If NATO had been dissolved or if the former Warsaw Pact had been joined with NATO in the 90s, things might look differently. Ironically until the recent events, many people here thought NATO was completely obsolete. Putin's behaviour in the Ukraine crisis has actually re-enforced many almost forgotten fears and now NATO has a purpose again, especially for the Eastern European countries. I guess the East-West divide will remain in place for the foreseeable future now, it may even become stronger than it used to be in the last 20 years.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Even those that join Russia peacefully and are peaceful protestors?

Peaceful protests are legal. Attacking a pro-Ukrainian march with weapons is not. How can't you see a difference?