Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

0 (0%)

So yeah.

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[Owlbread]

Apparently Russia's anti-LGBT laws are now active in Crimea.

[miljan]

The thing no one is talking, but I am interested, are the salaries and pensions increased in crimea, as they said it would?

I know there is talk about building new industry for ship maintenance and similar, and investing in it in the long run, but other than that, did not hear anything about income increase of people

[Sergarr]

And that right here is fascist as fuck

There are a number of definitions of the word "fascist". One is "belonging to a right-wing, authoritarian ideology", but that obviously doesn't work in this context because Russia is ruled by a right-wing, authoritarian government (Putin is perhaps one of the most recognisable, mainstream, modern-day right-wing autocrats) and the East Ukrainian protestors are also right wing and authoritarian in their politics, just like the Ultras on the West Ukrainian side.

The second definition is "belonging to a type of radical, ultranationalist, authoritarian ideology with an emphasis on militarism, the importance of the state and also a focus on strong leadership". Again, Russia fits the bill perfectly there, as do the East Ukrainian and Crimean protestors. To quote wikipedia directly, "Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation, and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations." Again, Russia fits the bill perfectly. A number of people in this thread have expressed those exact views.

The only problem comes when we look at the focus on "ethnic" nationalism and the importance of purity of blood and such, but you could conceivably have a brand of Fascism that would accept those people as long as they identified with the correct ethnic group, like Jews deciding that they are indeed German and will speak German and so forth. That said, that particular point has nothing to do with the stuff Sergarr is calling Fascist, and funnily enough this entire conflict was founded on Russian efforts to protect "ethnic Russians".

Tell me, exactly who in this conflict is Fascist?

He's fascist because he thinks that there are people who deserve to be burned alive and lynched by the raging crowd.

[Guardian G.I.]

The thing no one is talking, but I am interested, are the salaries and pensions increased in crimea, as they said it would?

I know there is talk about building new industry for ship maintenance and similar, an investing in it in the long run, but other than that, did not hear anything about income increase of people

Russian government apparently stated they would increase salaries and pensions gradually over a couple of months, in order to avoid inflation.

[Owlbread]

He's fascist because he thinks that there are people who deserve to be burned alive and lynched by the raging crowd.

I haven't heard him say that yet, but even if he thinks that, that doesn't make him a Fascist. That would just make him a very unpleasant person.

[Knit tie]

Just because one side in a conflict is faschist doesn't mean that the other one isn't. Russia and Ukraine are both perfectly capable of being faschists, and indeed do harbor some faschist, radical elements right now.

[Guardian G.I.]

The Odessa fire is very dangerous for the Ukrainian government because it gave the pro-Russian supporters martyrs (or "martyrs", depending on your political viewpoint) to energize the public movement. Already the most noticeable chant among pro-Russian supporters is "Одессу не простим!". Russian state television hasn't let such perfect propaganda fuel slip away: it is covering the fire as an atrocity committed by Ukrainian nationalists and is constantly comparing it it to the Khatyn massacre, when a Nazi German police battalion mainly composed of Ukrainian nationalists destroyed the eponymous Belarusian village and massacred its inhabitants.
Failure to control radical Ukrainian nationalist elements will be costly for the Ukrainian government, because it will give Russia a perfect excuse to start a military intervention.

[Sergarr]

My vision of events in Odessa

Fans went in peaceful march under Ukrainian flags(it wasn't  only ultras, locals including women and chlidren were present, too) That is a tradition nowadays, before match fans of opposing teams form a column and go together to the stadium

The column got attacked by paid thugs (or just violent Pro-Russians) that were coordinated with police that ignored their actions staying idly aside. Same stuff happened in Donetsk some time back.

Difference here is they attacked guys who know a thing or two about streetfighting, and what is more important, the whole city arise to counter them as soon as rumors spread (twitter is great) after that mini-maydan emerged nearly instantly, huge crowd assembled and bastards got what they deserved

(Yeah, you can name me heartless and terrible person, but for it is few dead patriots, unknown number of unlucky bystanders suffered and not enough scum eliminated. Hope there will be fewer idiots who want to get their $20 for beating Ukrainians that "dare" to walk with Ukrainian flags)

Ps. It would be better if that guys went to the jail, but when justice system fails to work stuff like that happens

UR, do you want to be burned alive? If not, then why did you not condemn the ones who did that?

a) When you go to maim and kill be ready that you may be maimed or killed. Something guys that suffocated (not burned alive) failed to understand and paid for that
b) They weren't killed intentionally. It wasn't a planned arson. That just happened during exchange of molotovs cocktails. If that was intentional lynching you would see at least few hundreds dead

https://twitter.com/howardamos/status/462946401941716992

Brilliant and expected. I repeat again: when police releases criminals  it is justifiable to neutralize them in other ways. At least those 30 will not cause mayhem anymore. Sad that those that were arrested and now released will get the second chance to kill Ukrainians

"not enough scum eliminated", "If that was intentional lynching you would see at least few hundreds dead", "Sad that those that were arrested and now released will get the second chance to kill Ukrainians".

Are you satisfied now, Owlbread?

[Owlbread]

While the quotes ""If that was intentional lynching you would see at least few hundreds dead" and "Sad that those that were arrested and now released will get the second chance to kill Ukrainians" do not inherently show a support for burning and lynching people, the quote "not enough scum eliminated" does. That was a very stupid and unpleasant thing to say. I know that emotions run high here and Ukraine is on the verge of something very nasty but it's our responsibility to pull UR up over stuff like that, just as we pull up Gogis and Guardian over silly comments.

Again though, let's say UR does want to burn them to death. Let's say he wants to lynch them. That doesn't make him a Fascist. That makes him an unpleasant person.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

They were just peaceful molotov-throwing [Russian nationals, mind you] provocateurs! Don't attack us, we just want to murder people who want a united Ukraine.

[Sheb]

Jeeez, Mict, calm down. It hasn't been proved they were Russians nationals. Plus, because they were throwing molotovs at people doesn't mean you should wish for their collective death.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I never wished anyone death. They were the ones with the obvious intention of occupying a city and harassing Ukranian citizenry like they've been in the east. I don't believe it's correct to judge a place like Ukraine and it's people right now. Do you really expect people to get invaded and do nothing in return?

[GrizzlyAdamz]

On this thread UR's stated the 8 identified on the scene were locals, and Guardian linked a site that claimed 15 russians & 5 transnistrians.

So, yep not proven, (least not on this thread).

[Sergarr]

So, Mict is hatemongering, Owlbread is europeining, UR is periodically switching between hatemongering and being depressed, and mainiac is americaining,

[da_nang]

Apparently Russia's anti-LGBT laws are now active in Crimea.

Milonov now wants to go further, banning gay and lesbian organisations and clubs, setting up a police force to monitor moral misdemeanours and shutting down LGBTI websites.

[Insert Nazi-Germany comparison]

Just another step closer to Kristallnacht and labor camps, I guess.

Seriously, though, "moral misdemeanours"? And just what morality will those be based on?