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Until I figure out how to un-close it, at least.

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So yeah.

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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: May 01, 2014, 02:06:40 pm

[smjjames]

BTW, what is Europa Universalis? I just heard the terms of minorities, accpeted and primary cultures used in a political discussion somewhere and liked the sense of those.

It's a strategy game basically. I haven't heard the terms accepted and primary cultures being used in political discussion though.

http://www.europauniversalis4.com/

[Xeron]

Europa Universalis is a grand strategy game, developed by Paradox Studios.You start out in i believe 1399 and end at around 1900 ?
You can play any nation existing between those time periods.It has diplomacy, country management and a very basic military combat system.There's other games set in different time periods and with different mechanics, also made by Paradox.
Regarding me insulting Putin, Comrade P. you have to look at it from my viewpoint.Romania's been stomped out by empires through history all the time, and Russia was one of those empires.Seeing Putin doing this is basically a signal that Russia's doing it all over again, for me.

[GlyphGryph]

Assclown question - as for me, you all know I approve Putin's policies right now and respect him as a man, and seeing him called an assclown was extremely discomforting. But caling a presedent an assclown totally doesn't mean to insult electorate to me. So it is maybe just gogis.

This seems to be a reasonable and understandable position, even if I don't personally hold it.

[smjjames]

Europa Universalis is a grand strategy game, developed by Paradox Studios.You start out in i believe 1399 and end at around 1900 ?
You can play any nation existing between those time periods.It has diplomacy, country management and a very basic military combat system.There's other games set in different time periods and with different mechanics, also made by Paradox.
Regarding me insulting Putin, Comrade P. you have to look at it from my viewpoint.Romania's been stomped out by empires through history all the time, and Russia was one of those empires.Seeing Putin doing this is basically a signal that Russia's doing it all over again, for me.

The vanilla EU4 game starts around 1440 and ends at 1820. The start and end date varies some depending on which Europa Universalis you're playing and you can use mods to change the start and end dates.

[Comrade P.]

Europa Universalis is a grand strategy game, developed by Paradox Studios.You start out in i believe 1399 and end at around 1900 ?
You can play any nation existing between those time periods.It has diplomacy, country management and a very basic military combat system.There's other games set in different time periods and with different mechanics, also made by Paradox.
Regarding me insulting Putin, Comrade P. you have to look at it from my viewpoint.Romania's been stomped out by empires through history all the time, and Russia was one of those empires.Seeing Putin doing this is basically a signal that Russia's doing it all over again, for me.

I could not actually say whether you had reasons to get mad with, but I see that you show an argumented kind of disapproval, so all I might ask you is to be just a bit more modest in your expressions.
Speaking of Paradox strategy games, I prefer Victoria II (approximately the same, but the period is from 1835 up to 1935 and includes Americas)

You guys want me to speak in more serious terms or are you fine with me using something like these?

[GrizzlyAdamz]

>uh oh 6 new pages
>hm, gogis started posting
I see where this is going


Anything important in the last 6 pages?

I heard putin's trying to leverage cutting off gas to Ukraine against Ukraine paying that bullshit gas bill.

[10ebbor10]

Well, it's a very legitimate gas bill. And a very real one too.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

It isn't legitimate if Ukraine's government isn't the one Russia previously made deals & treaties with.
It is legitimate if Russia deliberately broke their treaty and invaded a friendly country.
Putin's trying to have his (Russia's national integrity) and eat it too.


I'd say the narrative here is Putin knows the allies know gas flowing through Ukraine is that country's insurance policy, and is trying to play hardball.

[smjjames]

Bills are still bills, but yeah, if I were Ukraine, I would probably just give Russia the middle finger and not pay it anyway.

Then again, not paying those bills might harm their economy further anyhow, and Russia certainly isn't the only one that they have to pay bills to.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Russia's official stance is that Ukraine's government isn't legitimate, and therefore doesn't inherit the treaties Russia made with Ukraine in the last 20 years.

Liken this to...saying a truce made with a man doesn't pass to his brother.
Which it doesn't-they're different people after all.

Well, debts are also incurred by the man, being a legal entity, and they don't pass over to his brother, being a separate legal entity.
Except Russia is claiming just that.

If Ukraine's government is a separate legal entity for whom treaties aren't passed, (the brother), then debts don't pass either.
If Ukraine's government isn't a separate legal entity, (the man), then both the debts and the treaties still apply.

And this doesn't even get into the matter that Ukraine could sue Russia for any damages their invasion of Crimea caused---as in the voidance of their treaty with Russia. Russia's to blame for Ukraine's inability to provide the military base, which resolves Ukraine of legal responsibility to pay retroactively.



I'm not so worried about the economic fallout from saying 'f-you' to Russia so much as devaluing the pipes running through Ukraine. Putin's threatening to make invading Ukraine /so much easier/ if Ukraine (and, by extention, the EU since Ukraine lacks the funds) doesn't give into the extortion.

[smjjames]

I liked your father-son analogy a little better.

Edit: I think you should have stuck with the father-son analogy. Though it's likely not that simple, Russia may view the current government as illlegitimate, but everybody else views it as legitimate.

Edit: Actually, scratch that, the man-brother analogy works.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Yeah, revised it a billion times. Father-son isn't as good because it doesn't separate the two as completely as denouncing a government as illegitimate and therefore not part of the legal continuity.

Settled with man-brother.

[gogis]

Edit: I think you should have stuck with the father-son analogy. Though it's likely not that simple, Russia may view the current government as illlegitimate, but everybody else views it as legitimate.

Well, I know for sure that Russia does not see current goverment of Ukraine as legimate.
It's basically a fact for majority of population. All talks and suggestions come and go with this in mind.
On central TV channels and news.
True story.

[Owlbread]

The Ukrainian government is a revolutionary government. It will be legitimate after the next elections are held.

[smjjames]

Edit: I think you should have stuck with the father-son analogy. Though it's likely not that simple, Russia may view the current government as illlegitimate, but everybody else views it as legitimate.

Well, I know for sure that Russia does not see current goverment of Ukraine as legimate.
It's basically a fact for majority of population. All talks and suggestions come and go with this in mind.
On central TV channels and news.
True story.

My point was just that legally, it may not be that simple as far as whether the current Ukranian government is free of the debt it has to Russia or not.

The Ukrainian government is a revolutionary government. It will be legitimate after the next elections are held.

There we go, maybe Putin will find that one legitmate? He'd better not try and manipulate the results though