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[Jim Groovester]

Hey 4maskwolf, if you're so fucking smart, how about you explain why Objective and Leafsnail were willing to see a Deathsword/Persus13 lynch go through when according to you he has Convert.

Believing your theory also requires you to believe that Objective and Leafsnail were willing to bus the most important member of their team. Keep in mind that Objective switched his vote to Deathsword with two hours left in the day. There's literally no reason for obvscum like Objective to do that. Rationalize that, smart guy!

Your theory isn't as rock-fucking solid as you keep repeatedly claiming. It's entirely possible that Deathsword/Persus13 doesn't even have Convert, but you've pushed so hard for a Tiruin/Deathsword dichotomy that people began assuming that that's what had to be the case. In particular, scum Leafsnail would definitely have no qualms about letting you continue believing your theory and would even subtly encourage it if you just so happened to be totally dead fucking wrong about it.

There's so much more I need to respond to but I don't have the time.

[Tiruin]

So...reads? And scumteamlist?

[Jim Groovester]

There's so much more I need to respond to but I don't have the time.

I pick at what I can.

[4maskwolf]

Hey 4maskwolf, if you're so fucking smart, how about you explain why Objective and Leafsnail were willing to see a Deathsword/Persus13 lynch go through when according to you he has Convert.

Believing your theory also requires you to believe that Objective and Leafsnail were willing to bus the most important member of their team. Keep in mind that Objective switched his vote to Deathsword with two hours left in the day. There's literally no reason for obvscum like Objective to do that. Rationalize that, smart guy!

Your theory isn't as rock-fucking solid as you keep repeatedly claiming. It's entirely possible that Deathsword/Persus13 doesn't even have Convert, but you've pushed so hard for a Tiruin/Deathsword dichotomy that people began assuming that that's what had to be the case. In particular, scum Leafsnail would definitely have no qualms about letting you continue believing your theory and would even subtly encourage it if you just so happened to be totally dead fucking wrong about it.

There's so much more I need to respond to but I don't have the time.

Oh, so I pissed off Jim, eh?  That's good, your anger makes you say stupid things.
Ahh, yes they were able to do that.  Yet take a look at this: who was it who extended the day to give him more time to obfuscate?  Leafsnail.  And if they had access to the scumchat, as they would have, then they would have known exactly how to play that whole scene out.  Seem willing to bus, then extend and back off.  You guys attempt to throw up pretty feeble defenses, if I may say so myself.

Also, what the hell is this:

In particular, scum Leafsnail would definitely have no qualms about letting you continue believing your theory and would even subtly encourage it if you just so happened to be totally dead fucking wrong about it.

And look who is adamantly opposed to my theory and grasping at straws to try and disprove it, hmm?  You and Leafsnail.  You have YET to propose a mathematically sound alternative to the Persus lynch, and yet you wail and mope about how mine isn't true.  Prove it, then.  Find some way to definitively disprove my hypothesis, and we're good to go.  I might even believe you if you can.

[Tiruin]

Hmm, wait.

Leafsnail: Why did you shift from Objective, to Deathsword, to Me as of late? Tone seemed to shift between seeing Objective, then looking at DS, then...claiming bandwagon somehow...then now.

How was DS the converter in your eyes back then?

[Jim Groovester]

I'm glad it's adamantly established that you believe your theory to be so correct that it brooks no criticism.

And look who is adamantly opposed to my theory and grasping at straws to try and disprove it, hmm?  You and Leafsnail.  You have YET to propose a mathematically sound alternative to the Persus lynch, and yet you wail and mope about how mine isn't true.  Prove it, then.  Find some way to definitively disprove my hypothesis, and we're good to go.  I might even believe you if you can.

There's no impetus to follow a theory just because a better one hasn't surfaced yet.

Ahh, yes they were able to do that.  Yet take a look at this: who was it who extended the day to give him more time to obfuscate?  Leafsnail.  And if they had access to the scumchat, as they would have, then they would have known exactly how to play that whole scene out.  Seem willing to bus, then extend and back off.  You guys attempt to throw up pretty feeble defenses, if I may say so myself.

Mastermind plans like this don't happen in mafia oh whatever.

You know what?

Never mind. You win. I admit the futility of arguing with you.

[4maskwolf]

I'm glad it's adamantly established that you believe your theory to be so correct that it brooks no criticism.

Oh no, I'm just waiting for a more logical theory to come from it's detractors, Jim, and so far none have arrived.

There's no impetus to follow a theory just because a better one hasn't surfaced yet.

This, I will grant you.  I never said you had to follow it.

Mastermind plans like this don't happen in mafia oh whatever.

So you are saying that plans like that don't happen, because they do.  I've pulled one of them off.  Very successfully.

Never mind. You win. I admit the futility of arguing with you.

Okay.  That's your choice, not mine.  I told you what it would take to change my mind: provide for me a solid theory, with a grounding in the results we were given, and I will take a look at it and, should it be more reasonable, take it.  Until then, you have done nothing to propose any theories other than "Tiruin has to be scum because powers".

[mastahcheese]

4maskwolf and Mastahcheese:  If you could vote now, whom would you be voting?  Why?

4mask pretty much explained everything I was going to say, other than who I'd vote.

I'd vote Persus, I think that he is the most likely to be converter, and that would make him the most dangerous of them all.

[Leafsnail]

In which my clain is denounced with certainties such as

I think it's less likely than the "Tiruin is converter" theory because Tiruin's roleclaim is obviously fake.

without backing.

So...why?

I have been over this multiple times.  It is an almost completely useless (the only thing in it which has any real value to a townie is the Inflate) build for 10 points.  Even if we accept that you forgot that the mafia would never kill it's still a really bizarre build, because a) two of your powers (immune to NKs + free protect) fill the exact same function and b) you could achieve almost exactly the same effect for 1 less by putting free on inflate instead of protect.

The thing that makes this unbelievable is the fact that you are generally a good player, and it seems like you must be able to do better.  Actually I'll go further: I know you can do better.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=134925.msg5111231#msg5111231
In this post you correctly identified a major flaw in the provisional ruleset - that day powers were undercosted and would probably be used by everyone.  This implies that you are able to correctly evaluate the power level of abilities in a format like this.  So why did you do so badly this time, wasting 9 points out of 10, and even including additional redundancy in those 9 poorly spent points?

This is essentially impossible, though.  There's basically no way to get a usable day-convert without Cleanse, and to be able to have both cleansed and fortune-told, you'd need (at minimum) ten points (free cleanse and fortune teller).  There's no way to get that without Magnetic or Unreliable (or Blatant/nonvoter, but that combo doesn't exist because neither blatant player is a nonvoter.)  In other words, we can believe there's only one convert so far (you).

I think you could do it with creative night one selling, but yeah I guess it would be hard to have two converters and an original scum teller.  Nothing to stop there being a recruited one though.

And of course, Toaster could always be the converter. If it's Lylo on a wrong decision, there's no reason OWM wouldn't have gone for a 1v1. This is only saved due to Leafsnail backing off from OWM to chase Deathsword. If Leaf was on the assumption of town, then a false cop claim would be like a big neon arrow pointing to the converter.
But there's always the slim chance that you and Leaf are both scum.

I'm confused.  Why do you think a player throwing themselves into a 1v1 is a good indication that they're the most important member of a scumteam?  Or indeed a 2v0.

I have claimed a kill, and nobody else has contested it.  We know what Leafsnail and objective have, and there is no way they could have packed an extra kill in their arsenal.  Additionally, by the fortune teller results, in order to get a convert instead of a kill I would have to drop miller and kill and pick up convert, hardcore, and DENSE.  And would have 0 points left currently, because of dense.  However, Cheese reviewed my remaining points and found that I had one point, which wouldn't otherwise be possible.

Santa

It would have been trivial for Native to leave the convert off the list, leaving just the kill as an obvious scumtell.  It would have been trivial to frame me as a member of the scum team and kill me, which would have yielded no information for the town to go off of.  In the meantime, the scum convert another person, bringing them up to five members.  To the town's 12.  Leaving it in actual LYLO, barring the ability to kill off or block the converter.

I do not believe that there's any combination of 3 players in this game dumb enough to not take a conversion - if any player tried to suggest that the scum didn't take it I would call them a liar.

That said I guess this would sortof work if Tack were scum and Native were trying to make it look like the converter was already recycled away, but a) that fails if Tack is town (how does he know the Recycle even got used in the night?) and b) I wouldn't say that's a no-brainer decision anyway, particularly because that doesn't really achieve anything except damning one useless player unless the town players foolishly disregard the possibility that Native is scum.

The thing that makes Native town is the fact that Tiruin is the converter.

Cheese has confirmed his ability to day-sap by doing so to Leafy, and thus cannot be converter.

This is incredibly naive.  There's nothing stopping a mafia member from claiming their partner's ability.  I mean heck that's the entire basis of your theory!

Also, Leafsnail was not the convert.  His combo is a HORRIFIC town combo because it is far more likely to hit town than scum, particularly night one, and the total neutralization of a town power role is a really, really bad thing.  Having plain recycle is okay for town, but running a day-sap on them is just not a towny move because it could permanently remove a player from the game.  Particularly if you target it at someone who is unable to vote, they basically become a spectator.  Also, learn to aim better, scummy mcscummerton Leafy.

This paragraph is fucking priceless.  Everything you said here applies equally to Kill (you know, the thing you picked).  Heck, it applies way more because:
a) You're removing town points from the game instead of just moving them over to another townie
b) You're not just totally neutralizing a town role, you're also neutralizing that player's vote, and their ability to gains points in the future, and the knowledge they gained during the night

Even if my Tack decision was wrong, the result would not have been hugely disastrous if Tack didn't throw a huge tantrum about it.  I would be able to buy into both Prolific and Free to recycle 3 people on the following night - and preventing the top three converter suspects from acting at all is incredibly powerful.  Compare to "the target is dead and can never act or vote again".

Jim is probably a scum because he is buying into the crap Leafsnail is trying to feed the town.  He is also the one who would logically be the first to be converted at night, because of his experience.  His efforts to attack Tiruin are feeble at best and downright stupid at worst, and he has no evidence beyond "that seems like a bad role combo and you're acting defensive".

Wait, you're suggesting that I was on the original scumteam?  Wow.  I am insulted that you think I'd let my team-mate pick Innocent/Sapper/Protect (although I'm sure Jim would feel the same way if you switched him into your team).

Leafsnail: Why did you shift from Objective, to Deathsword, to Me as of late? Tone seemed to shift between seeing Objective, then looking at DS, then...claiming bandwagon somehow...then now.

I switched to Deathsword because 4mask's reasoning seemed plausible at first glance, then away because you made an extremely scummy action ("I'm not sure about this player but I'm going to put the nails in his coffin anyway") that drew my attention back to your extremely scummy claim.  And then I noticed 4mask's reasoning was based on a completely incorrect assumption anyway.

[TheDarkStar]

-snip-

Also, Leafsnail was not the convert.  His combo is a HORRIFIC town combo because it is far more likely to hit town than scum, particularly night one, and the total neutralization of a town power role is a really, really bad thing.  Having plain recycle is okay for town, but running a day-sap on them is just not a towny move because it could permanently remove a player from the game.  Particularly if you target it at someone who is unable to vote, they basically become a spectator.  Also, learn to aim better, scummy mcscummerton Leafy.

Everything you said here applies equally to Kill (you know, the thing you picked).  Heck, it applies way more because:
a) You're removing town points from the game instead of just moving them over to another townie
b) You're not just totally neutralizing a town role, you're also neutralizing that player's vote, and their ability to gains points in the future, and the knowledge they gained during the night

Even if my Tack decision was wrong, the result would not have been hugely disastrous if Tack didn't throw a huge tantrum about it.  I would be able to buy into both Prolific and Free to recycle 3 people on the following night - and preventing the top three converter suspects from acting at all is incredibly powerful.  Compare to "the target is dead and can never act or vote again".

Jim is probably a scum because he is buying into the crap Leafsnail is trying to feed the town.  He is also the one who would logically be the first to be converted at night, because of his experience.  His efforts to attack Tiruin are feeble at best and downright stupid at worst, and he has no evidence beyond "that seems like a bad role combo and you're acting defensive".

Wait, you're suggesting that I was on the original scumteam?  Wow.  I am insulted that you think I'd let my team-mate pick Innocent/Sapper/Protect (although I'm sure Jim would feel the same way if you switched him into your team).

Leafsnail: Why did you shift from Objective, to Deathsword, to Me as of late? Tone seemed to shift between seeing Objective, then looking at DS, then...claiming bandwagon somehow...then now.

I switched to Deathsword because 4mask's reasoning seemed plausible at first glance, then away because you made an extremely scummy action ("I'm not sure about this player but I'm going to put the nails in his coffin anyway") that drew my attention back to your extremely scummy claim.  And then I noticed 4mask's reasoning was based on a completely incorrect assumption anyway.

Your arguments are odd. Every one of them is intended to throw doubt on the ideas we have or the people that we think are town. As town, you would not be doing this in response to the questions asked (but that's getting into WIFOM).
Examples:
-saying that 4maskwolf is scummier than you because of his role. DESPITE you using it on someone who claimed a TOWN role and him not having killed yet (town powers are NOt meant to be used randomly, despite what you say)
-saying that Tiruin is scum because of her role (which just happens to fit the fortune teller list; also it's irrelevant to say that the scum might claim each other's role in this case, since the roles still have to be there somewhere)
-drawing attention away from your own non-town oriented role (really, why would you randomly target someone for claiming a town role night one?)
-trying to say that Tiruin being scum makes Native town (explain this please

Also, why is 4mask's assumption incorrect, and which one?

[Leafsnail]

-saying that 4maskwolf is scummier than you because of his role. DESPITE you using it on someone who claimed a TOWN role and him not having killed yet (town powers are NOt meant to be used randomly, despite what you say)

I should have made this clearer, but that's not what I'm saying at all.  What I'm doing is comparing my role to the commonly accepted (certainly by 4mask, since he picked it) role of Vigilante, and pointing out it is less harmful to the town.  Yes, my role could cause harm (as much harm as any roleblocker).  No, that level of harm is not anywhere near the point where it becomes unacceptable as a town role.

-saying that Tiruin is scum because of her role (which just happens to fit the fortune teller list; also it's irrelevant to say that the scum might claim each other's role in this case, since the roles still have to be there somewhere)

It... isn't irrelevant at all, though.  The different abilities could be broken down into other roles that could make sense.  As it is her role looks like a mashup.

-drawing attention away from your own non-town oriented role (really, why would you randomly target someone for claiming a town role night one?)

Ok, you aren't criticizing my role at this point, but my action.  I've explained this several times.  In a normal game, yes, that would undeniably be a bad idea - you're potentially blocking an unusually powerful town player, and the possibility of stopping a mafiakill isn't worth that risk.  But two things are different in this game:
1. Every player has the exact same potential.  If Tack were town he'd be no weaker or stronger than the average townie.  This eliminates the first point of consideration.
2. There are converters in this game.  Convert is infinitely more dangerous than kill.  This means that, as a recycler/sapper, you should shoot for the person you most believe is the converter.  Because if you hit them that's completely crippled the scumteam, and if you miss then at worse you've prevented one town ability from resolving.

-trying to say that Tiruin being scum makes Native town (explain this please

There just aren't enough spaces on the scumteam if we assume night conversions - there has to be one of Objective and you, MOWE, Tawa and Tiruin.  But actually I guess it's possible with day converters, so never mind.  Doesn't change the fact that Tiruin is scum.

Also, why is 4mask's assumption incorrect, and which one?

The assumption he's making is that the mafia cannot be constructing a more complicated lie than "have the converter claim the gift".  This assumption is wrong.  If anything, it seems like it would be safer to put the converter as far away from the dodgy claim as possible.

Imagine a scumteam including, for example, Deathsword and Jim.  Deathsword's role is Santa Prolific Magnetic.  Jim's is Dense Hardcore Converter, or whatever.  They get Hide handed to the team as a gift (either from me or Tawa).

Can you see that this works just as well as the theory 4mask proposed?  By claiming a team-mate's role (and I kindof think this is the sensible thing to do - it means that any blowback will hit a less important member) a converter can completely evade his reasoning.  Indeed, almost anyone can be one (although some people have required partners in Native/Cheese/Jack - I get his point now, I forgot Cheese also scanned 4mask).

[4maskwolf]

Leafy: One quick thing, you're reasoning behind "it is possible for 4mask to be the converter" is entirely untrue, because based on the math, even assuming I was santa'd the kill (which the math assumed), you are at the same time damning me, Cheese, and Tawarochir or Groovester, and because Tawarochir or Groovester would have, in that case, lied about gifting you, then you are innocent and Toaster is scum, because Toaster accused you.  However, there is the small matter of the 1 v 1 of Objective and TDS, which cannot be resolved given the stipulations of the game.

[Leafsnail]

Yes, as I stated in the post that logic does work for you, I missed the implications of cheese's inspect.  It doesn't work for a lot of other players though (including Tiruin).

[mastahcheese]

I like how my scan and sap has made the most unintentional cop ever.

[Leafsnail]

The fact that Miller exists makes it really powerful.