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[TheDarkStar]

At this point, I know that Objective is scum, and I highly suspect LS is scum for similar reasons to Tiruin: Accusation after accusation, a recycle targeted at someone with a very useful town power, and trying to make random people look like scum while making the scummy people appear less scummy.

I'll also vote for Deathsword because he's the only guy who is suspected to be the converter. 4maskwolf's argument also resolves the roles nicely.

Reads:

Tiruin: Town lean despite an odd role; actively scumhunting.
mastahcheese: Town lean from what I can see, but no guarantees on him getting converted. He hasn't posted much in the last few pages.
4maskwolf: Town lean; he makes a good point about Deathsword.
Jim Groovester: Town lean, but he has a higher chance of being converted than most other people.
Tack: Seemed scummy at first, but had his role removed. His point total was also checked (by Jack A T? I can't remember).
NativeForeigner: I can't recall anything that he has done, but that's not unusual for him. Null read.
Objective: He's scum, case closed.
MOWE: Town lean because of the way that Leafsnail started arguing with him. If we don't get the converter, though, he might get converted.
Deathsword: Scum lean because it makes the roles work out.
Tawa: Slight scum lean, but it mostly seems to be his playstyle. He acts oddly, but his claims make sense.
Jack A T: Town lean, but I've seen doubts from other people in that regard. Possibly converted, but he did point out that Tack was town.
Leafsnail: Scum lean, as I have already pointed out.
TheDarkStar: Obviously town (at least from my view)

[Leafsnail]

Which doesn't sell it to me at all.
I said objectively. Put yourself in my shoes, and then make Leafsnail obviscum. Who do you believe the rest of the team would be? Would the scum having a recycle change anything?

This is still a really strange question.  I guess the easiest (and indeed only one I see making some degree of sense) would be Tiruin+ Objective + Deathsword/NativeForeigner + Me.  You can either take Deathsword as the converter as in 4mask's theory, or NativeForeigner and then have Tiruin as the converter.  I then lie about receiving two gifts because uh I was hoping no-one would notice, I guess?

Scum having recycle would not really change much, no.  It's a power cheap enough that almost anyone can get it at any point.

Tell me, would you see Leafsnail's endless bickering with Tiruin as a double-bluff? Or would you look to a different person as the converter?

No, because I know how I play as town and I would see myself as town.  But yeah maybe you could see it as a double bluff if you're still so upset about losing your abilities that you have to make me scum?  That would explain why Tiruin took a role that makes absolutely no sense and also allow me to still be scum.

What about Leafsnail's sudden (and not entirely subtle) flipflop on deathsword? A sloppily executed master plan, or just covering his bases?

Neither of those suggestions actually make any sense.  Viewing it as an extension of the double bluff might work a bit better.  Maybe.

Tawa lying, then, is also based on Leafsnail's claim of only receiving one power. If Leafsnail is obviscum, does that clear Tawarochir? And who takes his place?

Tawa + Leafsnail scum makes even less sense than Leafsnail scum + Tawa town, so yeah he'd probably be town.  Look to the team above for who would be scum.

[Leafsnail]

Hey wait a second, I just realized 4mask's theory is actually demonstrably false.  He left 2 Hardcores out of four as unclaimed, when in fact three have been claimed (me, TDS, mastahcheese.

[Tiruin]

...This just has to be said.

Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)

ARHGHGHGHGHGHGHGGHHGHGHGHGGJGHHHH

[notquitethere]

Persus13 has replaced Deathsword


Leafsnail

NQT: when a player inflates something, when does everyone else learn that?  Would a blatant player be seen inflating something?

Blatant power use is revealed at the end of a phase, and it only affects powers that target players. Inflation is shown in a renewed list of power costs, shown at the end of the day.

[Tiruin]

wat

Then why didn't i-
*checks*
-t show up?!

[Leafsnail]

Presumably because it isn't the end of the day yet.

[Tack]

She means D1

But yeah maybe you could see it as a double bluff if you're still so upset about losing your abilities that you have to make me scum?

You're still doing it wrong.
It seems that rather than thinking it through objectively and using the exercise to get a fresh perspective you instead just want to take every opportunity to shout 'I'm town!'.
So at the very least I'll try and ask questions so that you can do that right, because personal attacks and 'uh... I guess I'd be dumb' isn't.

You've got to look at it logically, take it from a scum viewpoint and then back yourself into a corner.
We're leaving behind the dodgy recycle on me, we're leaving behind OWM's claim. Just think it through as best you can and give an answer. I can think of better answers than the ones you're giving me, and I know you're better than me at this. You keep giving me deliberate shit and I'll have to retract my moment of indecision.

So:
Why would you, if you were scum, argue this much with Tiruin, if Tiruin was also scum?
What would you see yourself saying to her over PM?
If you had the scumteam you described (incl you), what would be a better fake-claim for the converter to take?
If Tawarochir was scum (not part of your picked team, but do your best) would you guide him, rebuke him or tell him to continue making disjointed votes? Why?
Last but not least: if your converter was in trouble, would you vote for them to gain yourself credibility or in order to use your current 'obviscum' status to sow doubts? Or would you attempt to defend them?

[Tiruin]

...I mistook that meaning the same night it was used.

Persus13 has replaced Deathsword


Leafsnail

NQT: when a player inflates something, when does everyone else learn that?  Would a blatant player be seen inflating something?

Blatant power use is revealed at the end of a phase, and it only affects powers that target players. Inflation is shown in a renewed list of power costs, shown at the end of the day.

because the bolded part can also refer to Night.

...Anyway, PFP-sleeps.

[Persus13]

Hi, going to read through this again (I've been following this slightly), and I'll get a post tonight.

[Leafsnail]

Why would you, if you were scum, argue this much with Tiruin, if Tiruin was also scum?

Ah, that's a much better question.  No, I don't think I'd ever put that much effort into a fake fight apart from anything else.  It would also attract a needless amount of attention to us.

If Tiruin made a genuine mistake then I might attack it just to try and stay in my town mindset, but again I don't think I'd let the argument drag on this long.

What would you see yourself saying to her over PM?

"Jesus Christ Tiruin stop making weird and easily contradicted claims" would be the general jist of it.

If you had the scumteam you described (incl you), what would be a better fake-claim for the converter to take?

In the NativeForeigner case they could claim basically anything.  I'd just ask the converter to imagine what they'd take as town and tell them to take that.  Something like Infallible Alignment Cop + some flaw would be fine, or I could get them to swap with Native Foreigner and claim Fortune Teller to further confuse the town.

In the Deathsword case Hide (which Tawa would have gifted to me) would be a pretty decent option, but I don't really have time to go through all the possibilities in this hypothetical, that would take ages.

If Tawarochir was scum (not part of your picked team, but do your best) would you guide him, rebuke him or tell him to continue making disjointed votes? Why?

Rebuke + tell him to stop making stupid votes.  Because it's needlessly attracting attention to him and could get him lynched.

Last but not least: if your converter was in trouble, would you vote for them to gain yourself credibility or in order to use your current 'obviscum' status to sow doubts? Or would you attempt to defend them?

I'd do whatever it takes to keep them alive, depending on the situation.  As long as the scumteam has a working converter they're doing fine, but as soon as they lose that they're up shit creek (suddenly confirmed townies everywhere who you can't do shit about).

I'd probably vote against and come up with a countertheory, I don't think I've ever seen the obvscum-jumping-on-bandwagon gambit ever working.

[mastahcheese]

Well, nobody asked me my reads (not like it matters since I can't vote) and I haven't said much (I've been following the arguments, and I don't really have any unique viewpoints to really contribute) So I'll go ahead and provide those.


Tiruin: She'd probably beat LS over the head with a lamp if she could, and continues to scumhunt despite it. Which is good. But she said "irregardless" which isn't even a word so she's obviscum. [/sarcasm]
mastahcheese: Fuggin' vampire.
4maskwolf: Actually seems to be putting some actual work into this, actually makes sense when not insane. Town.
Jim Groovester: Probably wishes he could have taken magnetic twice. Calling people out on BS. Town.
Tack: Can't do anything because obviscum robbed his ass. Pretty sure is town.
NativeForeigner: Fuggin' genius that gave us the ability list. Town.
Objective: STFU, scum
MOWE: Cop that outed LS. Town.
Deathsword: Pretty sure converter because everything else is pretty stupidly complicated in comparison. Scum.
Tawa: I'm starting to take his rampant flailing as a town tell, because no sane scumbuddy would put up with it.
Jack A T: I don't even know.
Leafsnail: Obviscum that keeps starting fights, blatantly contradicting himself and refusing to stay consistent. I don't know why Tiruin puts so much energy into him. At least I got to steal his stolen loot.
TheDarkStar: Proved that Objective is lying their face off. Town.

[Leafsnail]

Uh huh. So let's assume I'm the scumteam--we'll have unaccounted powers. Say, Protect. Free. 4 points in all
Convert costs 7.

Hehe.  It's interesting you bring up your Free, considering you could have easily spent 1 point to get exactly the same effect (free or day on Inflate).

Anyway I'll ignore your attempts to make the gloves not fit.  Let's assume Objective is scum for now.

Here is a possible set of abilities for the team.  You can obviously swap a few of these around but these seem like the most logical roles to me.

Spoiler: Tiruin (click to show/hide)

Convert (7)
Blatant (-1)
Dense (-1)
(note: no miller, explaining the fact one is missing)
Total points left over: 0

Spoiler: Objective (click to show/hide)

Protect (2)
Sap (2)
Innocent (1)
Points left: 1

Spoiler: MOWE (click to show/hide)

Town at start of game
Free Protect (4)
Inflate (1)
Clear Minded (1)
Magnetic (-2)
Points left: 2

Spoiler: Tawa (click to show/hide)

Santa (4)
Immune to Kills (5)
Bloodthirsty (1)
Magnetic (-2)
Hardcore (-1)
(buys kill immunity or Santa after gaining two points in the day)
(gives Infallible Alignment Cop to a mafia member as a gift)

Further note: the final unaccounted for ability is the gift to Jack.

All of these roles seem plausible to me (certainly more plausible than what Tiruin actually claimed).  Taking Blatant as a converter is obviously a risk, but I think Tiruin proved she can be ballsy as scum in Toon Mafia VII.

[Leafsnail]

Leafsnail: Obviscum that keeps starting fights, blatantly contradicting himself and refusing to stay consistent. I don't know why Tiruin puts so much energy into him. At least I got to steal his stolen loot.

How about providing an example of me contradicting myself?  Changing your mind does not qualify as this, btw.

[Tiruin]

Let me burst your bubble.

Guess why I issued a hypothetical/rhetorical to Tack earlier.

Also before people begin chasing a useless link:
I bought bloodthirsty at the end of day 1 and then immediately lost it.
I didn't have it, and never claimed it.

The closest I came to was this:

That sounds like a great excuse to bandwagon.
I'm assuming you have the Bloodthirsty perk, as well, to back that up?

How on earth did you guess?

Which was due to votepressure, and which only a few posts later I countermanded with my full claim, also due to vote pressure.

Which is nice.
But seriously, Tiruin. Recycle happens before fortune-telling. My bloodthirsty (which I did actually buy at the end of day 1) wouldn't be in the list anyway.
Get your head in the game.

. . .Y'know, nobody pointed that out.
So who was the other cop?!

Can you guess the only two people who had claimed Cop, sans Tack?