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[Seriyu]

So! I'm making a game. (With RPG maker VX ace, to get that out of the way.) Partially because I saw a lot of games (that I love), like OFF, Gingiva, Middens, that were RPG maker games with terrible combat but actually pretty great plot. I've always thought JRPG combat had a ton of potential that very few people actually took advantage of, so I aim to do the opposite.

A JRPG with a focus on combat rather then plot, visuals, or exploration. I'm taking a lot of inspiration (rather on accident, it just sorta turned up this way) from the etrian odyssey series, and to a lesser extent shin megami tensei. The current setup is a single town, with a single dungeon, 12 floors, as this is my first attempt at game design and I'd rather make it quick and easy to understand why and where I fucked up if I do. Notably, the "gimmick" I've had in my head is something similar to elemental weaknesses.

Namely, something I've dubbed elemental "curtains". Only the enemy has access to them, and what they do is raise the elemental strength of spells of that element for the user (maybe globally, actually!), but also make the target weaker to that element. Enemies will NEVER use curtains randomly, they're almost a "fight condition". Theoretically, this system will lead to decisions being made based around the curtains, and allowing buffs and nerfs to have a greater impact on a fight. I've got no issues with altering or even scrapping this entirely if I think up something better (or a better idea is introduced to me).

I'm still working on mapping, but shortly after that I'll probably dip into combat. Afterwords, art, music, and the (rather barebones) plot will be implimented.

At this time, I actually don't have a lot to show off! That'll likely occur when I get into music/art. I don't forsee the art being particularly good, but I have hopes for music being at least passable.

So yeah! Still in very preliminary stages, but I figured I'd make a post. I'll likely keep this updated with screenshots of progress/thoughts I've been having on the matter..

Spoiler: What's the progress on this anyway? (click to show/hide)

Mapping:
Phase 1 complete! The general frames are done, all the important things are in place, some touching up will be done after whatever art I replace is replaced, then it'll be done for real.

Combat:
Started!

Dialogue/Plot:
Done-ish! Flat in places, will probably get a second pass eventually, but it's in a workable state.

Art:
Started!

Music:
Started! (by a friend!)

[mastahcheese]

...So the concept is that, instead of individual situations that spring up, such as a party member getting slowed, burned, poisoned, whatever, the entire environment (more or less) gets altered?

...interesting idea, I'd like to see where it goes with that.

[UltraValican]

Turn based combat isn't something exclusive to JRPGS, you know. I know that's splitting hairs, but still.

Anyway, I've only read an LP of OFF and I'm currently playing through Middens. I'd say a big part of their "terrible combat" comes from lack of options concerning your party, their skills, their stats, and equipment. I mean, in OFF for example. A lot of equipment are just straight upgrades of each other. The skills you learn are just straight upgrades of each other. You might get some elemental variety going on, but ultimately your Batter is going to pretty much function exactly like everyone's Batter, the only difference is how much time you put into him. Being able to influence a character's growth and skills or your party at large is what really makes or breaks a turn based RPG(for me at least).

The "curtain" idea sounds pretty interesting. It reminds me a bit of the "weather" conditions in pokemon. What conditions do you have for there activation? Are they an active skill used by the enemy, or a passive skill used by the enemy?

PTW BTW

[Seriyu]

...So the concept is that, instead of individual situations that spring up, such as a party member getting slowed, burned, poisoned, whatever, the entire environment (more or less) gets altered?

...interesting idea, I'd like to see where it goes with that.

Yep! For now at least. Subject to change, it'll likely be solidified when I actually start making enemies and whatnot. Normal status effects will (probably) still exist, but the curtain does more or less alter the entire enviroment, yes. If I do use the curtain concept, it'll require a bit of scripting, so we'll see where that goes, it may not fit exactly as I'm planning it, but "elemental weaknesses" doesn't really sound like a stretch for a script, and that's all I'd need, everything else required is packed in RPG maker.

At the moment the curtain would only effect the player, but it would still have effects on the enemy as well, through the damage boost the player recieves. There's certainly room for more tweaking with it. Another thing worth mentioning is that the curtains enemies use is not nessacerily dictated by the enemy element, so, for instance, an ice elemental might use fire curtain to trick you into using a fire attack, whereupon it turns into a water elemental (if it survives the initial fire attack), gains a lot of attack power, and a resistance to physical and fire attacks, and suddenly you're in a terrible situation. Likewise the same enemy might have a branch at the beginning of a fight that determines what curtain it uses, so, that same ice elemental might just use ice curtain and force you into a defensive position due to it's ice attacks. That sorta thing. I'm also considering more "robust" curtains, where enemies lose options, but gain statistical benefits. An enemy might only have one curtain, so they're more predictable, but that curtain is amped up so it gives a defense or speed bonus or whatever to the enemy. That's a pretty new concept in my head though (just now, in fact!), so we'll see where it goes.

Turn based combat isn't something exclusive to JRPGS, you know. I know that's splitting hairs, but still.

Anyway, I've only read an LP of OFF and I'm currently playing through Middens. I'd say a big part of their "terrible combat" comes from lack of options concerning your party, their skills, their stats, and equipment. I mean, in OFF for example. A lot of equipment are just straight upgrades of each other. The skills you learn are just straight upgrades of each other. You might get some elemental variety going on, but ultimately your Batter is going to pretty much function exactly like everyone's Batter, the only difference is how much time you put into him. Being able to influence a character's growth and skills or your party at large is what really makes or breaks a turn based RPG(for me at least).

The "curtain" idea sounds pretty interesting. It reminds me a bit of the "weather" conditions in pokemon. What conditions do you have for there activation? Are they an active skill used by the enemy, or a passive skill used by the enemy?

PTW BTW

Yeah, I just used JRPG because brain fart. TBS combat is certainly not limited to JRPGs!

You are 100% correct about the options, character "customization" is certainly a big part of it. Another large part is just that the combat in most cases could boil down to spamming attack, which gingiva is very guilty of, and OFF to a lesser extent, at least elemental attacks pack a punch in OFF if you want to go through the hassle of finding what element is effective against the enemy you're fighting. Middens actually isn't too bad about it, but it's a little flat. Status effects are very effective, elemental weaknesses are a nice bonus, and some enemies are genuinely threatening. The real issue in middens I think, is that every fight boils down to "summon chakras, run down an element/status effect checklist, spam effective attacks".

Curtains are indeed like weather effects in pokemon! I'm not sure of the exact numbers for them in pokemon, but they'll be a bit of a stronger influence, I think. I never really noticed them in pokemon, but I never played it competitively, either. If I can get a "passive" effect to work, it'll basically operate like that, but mechanically it'll be an actively casted skill. It just might give a free turn, or whatever, if the enemy gets the first attack.

I'd also like to take a minute to say to anyone that hasn't played middens, despite my trashing of the combat system, pretty much every game done by John Clowder (Middens and Gingiva) is great, combat just isn't really their strength. CHECK THEM OUT THEY'RE FREE THEY'RE PART OF THE REASON I DID THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE

YOU'LL NEVER FEEL MORE EMOTIONALLY ATTACHED TO A SENTIENT GUN THAT WANTS YOU TO GO ON A KILLING SPREE

[mastahcheese]

Hmm, that sounds cool.

I like the concept of enemies morphing the curtain, and then morphing themselves as well, it causes you to have to actually think about how to proceed, as they can alter the entire situation in a single turn.

Maybe the Player Characters may gain powers to cast curtains, but only at rare instances?

Also, how do curtains work if multiple enemies attempt to alter it at the same time? Will you put in something so that only one can alter it at a time?

[Seriyu]

Hmm, that sounds cool.

I like the concept of enemies morphing the curtain, and then morphing themselves as well, it causes you to have to actually think about how to proceed, as they can alter the entire situation in a single turn.

Maybe the Player Characters may gain powers to cast curtains, but only at rare instances?

Also, how do curtains work if multiple enemies attempt to alter it at the same time? Will you put in something so that only one can alter it at a time?

I am toying with the idea of maybe item curtain casts, but they'd have to be pretty rare, as it could shatter a lot of the difficulty in combat (not that having a "fuck this dumb boss" option is really bad, persay, but you shouldn't be able to throw them out for everything). 400% damage to a boss could really wreck stuff, as I'm trying to avoid the "big tanky boss" trope as much as possible, as it's kind've a lazy way to increase difficulty. Not that bosses won't have more HP then mooks, but they won't have a jillion and rely on random spell spamming.

Multiple curtains will either result in multiple resistances dropping, and multiple elemental attack improvements gained, or erasing and replacing the previous curtain. It may even be dependant on the fight, boss fights might be able to overlap curtains, mooks might not be able to, etc. This will be communicated in game somehow (preferably not by having to memorize a list), or it won't happen, mind you. If I can't get it feeling natural then I'll probably just stick with either overlapping or erasing (probably overlapping, as it adds quite a bit of complexity).

[mastahcheese]

Hmm, maybe every curtain has some kind of elemental "alignment" so that some curtains can stack, and some will cancel each other out?
Then you could add in a player ability that, rather then introducing a new curtain, simply disables one in play.

So you couldn't have a fire curtain and a water curtain, but you could throw a fire and sand combo out.

...Maybe if you wanted to go super in depth, then some would actually form new ones, so fighting a mix of differing enemy types would give them powers that neither could do on their own?
Such as one throwing down a sand curtain, and then one putting up a lightning curtain, and they fuse into a glass curtain, for instance.

[AndClayton]

Aye, I'd hate to go off topic, but if you need help with art or writing, I'd like to extend my services.

[Seriyu]

Hmm, maybe every curtain has some kind of elemental "alignment" so that some curtains can stack, and some will cancel each other out?
Then you could add in a player ability that, rather then introducing a new curtain, simply disables one in play.

So you couldn't have a fire curtain and a water curtain, but you could throw a fire and sand combo out.

...Maybe if you wanted to go super in depth, then some would actually form new ones, so fighting a mix of differing enemy types would give them powers that neither could do on their own?
Such as one throwing down a sand curtain, and then one putting up a lightning curtain, and they fuse into a glass curtain, for instance.

Possible. I'm not against types "merging" in some way, I think enemy interactions like that due to elemental attacks (like, say, fire attack to a water elemental, with an air elemental in the same party causes them to merge into a cloud, with multiple elemental weaknesses or something. Not the best example, but you get the idea), would be neat, but I'm gonna be keeping elemental curtains pretty straightforward, with normal elements. Water, Wind, Fire, Earth, Light, Dark. Maybe a physical curtain in special circumstances. Elemental interactions with enemies are always nice, adds more issues with trying to just spam x attack, but even then, it's important they stay relatively intuitive. To use a non elemental example, a friend suggested a heavily armored guy as an enemy, that's weak to lightning. Metal conducts, that's relatively intuitive.

I do appreciate throwing out ideas though, thank ya!

Aye, I'd hate to go off topic, but if you need help with art or writing, I'd like to extend my services.

First off, this is fine, don't worry about being off topic. I've sent you a PM!

[mastahcheese]

I do appreciate throwing out ideas though, thank ya!

You're welcome! Making video games is something I've wanted to do my whole life, so I've pent up lots of ideas, and like thinking about them.

And if you want to actually see a better concept of my "arcane alignments", and element merging ideas, you should check out a game called "Magicka", as it has a very wonky system regarding it.

[Seriyu]

Updated OP! Finished two more floors. And a chance for people to chip in. I've also shortened the game to 12 floors (2 floors removed from each tier), for reasons that will become apparent. If I suddenly get a huge burst of inspiration, the game can just as easily be extended, so don't fret too much. I never intended the game to be an epic, though.

So! I'm rather quickly running out of dungeon floor designs (in my mind). So here's a thing. Is there ever a dungeon design THING you wanted to see in an RPG?

Anything at all that can be represented on a tiled, SNES era RPG. I can do a pretty wide variety of things, so just go nuts.

NAturally even if this gets no responses the game will move forward, so don't feel compelled!

[mastahcheese]

If I come up with something, I'll be sure to tell you.

Looking good!

[darkflagrance]

Updated OP! Finished two more floors. And a chance for people to chip in. I've also shortened the game to 12 floors (2 floors removed from each tier), for reasons that will become apparent. If I suddenly get a huge burst of inspiration, the game can just as easily be extended, so don't fret too much. I never intended the game to be an epic, though.

So! I'm rather quickly running out of dungeon floor designs (in my mind). So here's a thing. Is there ever a dungeon design THING you wanted to see in an RPG?

Anything at all that can be represented on a tiled, SNES era RPG. I can do a pretty wide variety of things, so just go nuts.

NAturally even if this gets no responses the game will move forward, so don't feel compelled!

What about a map where you walk on clouds above an empty sky - the cloud tiles (walkable floor) would randomly form and reform in front of and behind the character. The "sky" tiles might shift in a way that makes it appear as if the player is being carried by the clouds across the world or the cosmos like in Final Destination in Smash Brothers.

Another map where you start in the middle, and when you beat a mini-boss, you open up an outer, more complex layer with a new mini-boss. The intent is to awe the player with the complexity of the traps and puzzles, or barring that, the patterns in the outer layers.

Another map where you go from one room to the next. You choose a door that determines what you find in the next room (boss, medium enemy, horde of weak enemies, healing, treasure) and cannot retreat.

Maybe a map where the tiles have automatic curtains activated, and the enemies have powerful elemental curtains, and you need to fight the enemies on tiles where the tile curtains cancel out theirs.

A map where a miniboss starts out chasing you and is weakened whenever you defeat monsters on the level.

Are these the kinds of things you're looking for?

[Seriyu]

IIII like all of those, thank you very much! Due to how the dungeon is going to end up (trying to keep floors relatively small, and due to rudimentary plot the dungeon is entirely underground, locking out clouds), I can't use all of them, but the idea of "floor conditions" for combat is a particularly good one that somehow slipped my mind. Thank ya!

[mastahcheese]

Hmm, since you're implementing your curtain idea, that would allow you to put in things like cave-ins that damage the party and other large-scale effects, right?