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Author Topic: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.  (Read 12507 times)

LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2014, 07:37:58 pm »

But then again, I am well-adapted to cynicism. Cynicism is my atmosphere. It seethes through my gills, it nourishes my body, it makes survival possible. Choke a man by denying him air and he will die; so without cynicism shall I wither and perish.
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SalmonGod

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2014, 12:19:27 am »

PTW
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DJ

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2014, 03:31:34 am »

It's not really about what this guy deserves, it's about sending a message to other drug lords. So Mexico should draw and quarter him and display the quarters in the cities with worst cartel problems, and the whole procedure should be televised.
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WillowLuman

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2014, 12:31:05 pm »

Except that's barbaric and just says that the Mexican government is willing to stoop to their level.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2014, 12:40:53 pm »

Yeah I mean come on if you wanted to stop the drug trade just throw some Ice-9 into the ocean. Sorted.
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Zangi

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2014, 12:49:49 pm »

There are other drug lords in lock-up.  I'm going to say that it is safe to assume that whatever examples we have made so far and will make with this latest guy are not gonna stop someone else coming to power or the next wave of brutal gang fighting.

Cause ya know... there is still money to be made and people needing to bring home bacon.
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WillowLuman

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2014, 12:52:04 pm »

And greedy people willing to stage mass executions of civilians to send a message to the Government and other cartels.
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SalmonGod

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2014, 01:05:42 pm »

Back to the whole execution thing (now that I've had a chance to catch up on this), I'm surprised that people are calling the guillotine humane.  I'm pretty sure a cleanly severed head stays conscious for long enough to be horrifying.

I think the only way to approach execution humanely is to first have the subject completely knocked out, and then ensure as instant destruction of the brain as possible.
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Zangi

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2014, 01:14:49 pm »

Personally, I do not subscribe to 'humane' executions.  You are still killing the person.  No need to dress it up.
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Bauglir

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2014, 01:18:15 pm »

Personally, I do not subscribe to 'humane' executions.  You are still killing the person.  No need to dress it up.
You can kill somebody without being a dick about it. Well. More of a dick than the act itself requires, at any rate. Gunshot to the back of a sleeping person's head vs slowly lowering a very awake person into a vat of concentrated sulfuric acid, for instance, rate fairly differently on the dickishness scale.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Zangi

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2014, 01:20:53 pm »

Personally, I do not subscribe to 'humane' executions.  You are still killing the person.  No need to dress it up.
You can kill somebody without being a dick about it. Well. More of a dick than the act itself requires, at any rate. Gunshot to the back of a sleeping person's head vs slowly lowering a very awake person into a vat of concentrated sulfuric acid, for instance, rate fairly differently on the dickishness scale.
Let me clarify.  Not caring about 'humane' executions does not equate to support for extravagantly dickish methods of killing peopleexecutions.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 01:22:25 pm by Zangi »
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2014, 01:35:45 pm »

Back to the whole execution thing (now that I've had a chance to catch up on this), I'm surprised that people are calling the guillotine humane.  I'm pretty sure a cleanly severed head stays conscious for long enough to be horrifying.

I think the only way to approach execution humanely is to first have the subject completely knocked out, and then ensure as instant destruction of the brain as possible.
There have been some claims circulating but it's frequently dubious sourcing. For example, there's a story about this French lady who murdered a journalist and the executioner held her head up and slapped it and witnesses claimed her eyes looked at him and her face had an indignant expression. But,

1: The source may just be someone writing about it around that time,
2: People regularly invent memories about things that everyone else said happened (such as X or Y television personality saying "that ought to hold the little shits" after believing the cameras were turned off),
3: It's just the kind of story you would expect from Revolution-era France,
4: There was a lot of curiosity about whether the head would remain conscious, meaning everyone would be excited to read stories about it - meaning there was a very clear profit motive for anyone fabricating such a story.

We also have contradicting accounts of various stories such as executioners asking the victim to blink after beheading, where one account says he did for 30 seconds and another says he never did. Doctors claiming the eyes moved in response to calling the victim's name up to an hour after death - which is just stupid and impossible from the standpoint of what we know today, but may have seemed possible to a liar back then. We have a lot of inconsistency and a lot of outright falsehood and it's tough to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Being cut off from the blood supply, and thus oxygen, knocks a brain out very quickly. Consider that when you hold your breath, your blood still holds oxygen, and is still circulating it. When you're strangled, the blood flow is not cut off perfectly and the brain still holds some blood. In decapitation the blood flow stops completely and instantly and the brain's blood also begins to drain out. It's also reasonable to assume that the shock and trauma could contribute to a blackout. Fear itself may also contribute.

Apparently there should be a split second where the victim can feel the blade cutting, and possibly up to a couple seconds after that. But it's reasonable to assume that there's a problem with motor control and perhaps some muscles spasm automatically, and is blinking on command really the most important thing to the victim at that moment? So it's hard to tell what's going through a person's head in the seconds after beheading (an axe! har har).

However, apparently it was the concern that the victim feels the pain of the death that made it unacceptable as a form of execution. I suspect someone could invent a quicker machine, but that's probably a tough pitch to the shareholders at GM.

--

I think the reason behind the humane execution thing is similar to why we don't televise it, and why the perp's victims don't get to perform the execution or choose the method. It's supposed to be equivalent to destruction of a mad dog, a sad event but one that must be done for everyone's safety. By stripping it as much as possible of anger, by making it as painless as possible, it makes the executioner (and the people in charge telling him to do it) feel that the execution is not an act of murder.

Which is kinda weird.
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Bauglir

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2014, 02:02:28 pm »

Personally, I do not subscribe to 'humane' executions.  You are still killing the person.  No need to dress it up.
You can kill somebody without being a dick about it. Well. More of a dick than the act itself requires, at any rate. Gunshot to the back of a sleeping person's head vs slowly lowering a very awake person into a vat of concentrated sulfuric acid, for instance, rate fairly differently on the dickishness scale.
Let me clarify.  Not caring about 'humane' executions does not equate to support for extravagantly dickish methods of killing peopleexecutions.
Then I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, to be honest. Talking about humane executions is talking about minimizing the suffering on the part of the person who needs to be executed - which is literally the only reason to avoid the extravagant dickishness, which at least has the virtue of being entertaining if you do it right (although my example last post does not).
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

WillowLuman

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2014, 02:40:17 pm »

What he's saying is that he's against the death penalty.

And taking joy in the mutilative death of real people isn't something we should strive for.
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Bauglir

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Re: World's biggest drug kingpin arrested.
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2014, 02:45:33 pm »

What he's saying is that he's against the death penalty.
Oh, it's a terminology issue about how impossible it is to call the act of killing 'humane'? Well, yes, I disagree with the death penalty as a thing (sorry if my posts implied otherwise), but I feel like the word still has value in this context because it seems very obvious to me that there are very different ways you can go about implementing such a penalty. And some of them are clearly worse than others, and we need a way to refer to the less-bad ways of doing it.

And taking joy in the mutilative death of real people isn't something we should strive for.
I agree, yes. I'm not sure whether you're objecting to something I unwittingly implied, or agreeing with me, so I just figured I'd respond with a "Yes, this is correct" to be sure.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.
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