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Author Topic: Suggestion for improved armour  (Read 3438 times)

NAV

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Suggestion for improved armour
« on: February 02, 2014, 11:49:12 pm »

Armour needs work. Right now it doesn't make any sense. There is no plate armour available for upper arms, greaves are a single piece covering the entire legs, there is no chainmail headgear, etc. Here's what I propose:

Chainmail pieces:
Mail socks (Feet)
Mail stockings (Feet and lower legs)
Mail leggings (Legs)
Mail skirt (Upper legs)
Mail hauberk (Torso, arms, upper legs)
Mail short sleeved hauberk (Torso, upper arms, upper legs)
Mail Sleeveless hauberk (Torso, upper legs)
Mail shirt (Torso, arms)
Mail short sleeved shirt (Torso, upper arms)
Mail sleeveless shirt (Torso)
Mail gauntlets (Hands)
Mail coif (head)

Platemail pieces:
Plate boots (Feet)
Lower greaves (Lower legs)
Upper greaves (Upper legs)
Breastplate (Torso)
Pauldrons (Upper arms)
Bracers (Lower arms)
Gauntlets (Hands)
Helmet (Head)

Other armours could also be added, like scaled or splinted mail. Or different types of helmets covering different percentages of the head. But this should be good as a basic list.

I know not everything here is historically accurate, please don't judge me based on this.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 11:57:02 pm by NAV »
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Sbcc

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2014, 12:01:48 am »

Dang you did alot of research, also very good idea, ive always hated the armour system for its randomess, this would be useful but also somewhat complicated to find all you need.  Still love it pver the system now.
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Bo-Rufus CMVII

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2014, 12:51:19 am »

This is do-able with mods... I've just started testing my first mod, which I created for the express purpose of scratching this particular itch.

I don't have as many pieces defined as you list; in particular I don't have full plate armor, since the base game doesn't use it, though I'm thinking of introducing it.  I defined haubergeons, etc., but removed them to reduce clutter, since there are other pieces that I would always choose (e.g., hauberk trumps haubergeon).

Here are the base armor, armor overlays, and bad-weather cover that I'm trying for my dorfs:

Armor:

coif (leather or chain)
hauberk (leather, scale, or chain)
gauntlets (leather or chain)
boots (leather) or demi-chausses (chain - my term for knee-high chausses)

All of those together cover the whole body except for the face.

I assume stuff made of bone or shell is scale mail, little pieces sewn on to a leather liner.  (Too bad you can't use dragon scales.)

I also allow for wooden chainmail, on the assumption that elven craftselves carve the item out of a single block of wood (so that joining the rings isn't an issue).

Overlays:

helm (goes over either coif)
breastplate (goes over any hauberk)
greaves (because I haven't decided what to do here yet)

Helms come in "helm" and "half helm", the former covering everything but the face, the latter only covering the crown of the head.  (The latter might be a good choice for dorfs in leather armor.)

I'm thinking about adding sabatons (plate foot covers) and great helms (though I'm not sure the game lets you define a helm that covers the face).

And of course, I'm also trying to decide whether to add full plate armor.

Cover:

hood (or hat, if you don't use a helm)
coat, greatcoat, or cloak
overshoes (goes over any footwear - I can't imagine anyone walking around in chain footwear without something over it.)
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Matoro

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2014, 02:25:57 am »

I think making armour and weapons break under pressure would be much more important. Currently you can mod all those different pieces of armour, but not their effectivity much.
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Helari

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2014, 07:35:40 am »

I think making armour and weapons break under pressure would be much more important. Currently you can mod all those different pieces of armour, but not their effectivity much.

the thing is armor, even just mail, is very hard to break with any regular medieval weapon. A breastplate is practically impossible to pierce with a sword or a regular arrow.

Armor breakage would only happen over a long time or due to some extreme force.
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Witty

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 10:46:22 am »

Before we get more variety in armor, the armor system itself needs to be revamped. Because right now it's very simplistic and illogical. Helmets can't cover the face, at all. A shirt can, somehow, protect fingers but not hands. And even if you do mod in more armor pieces, civs will just randomly decide which armor pieces to actually use, even if they're all defined as common in their entity. And there are plenty of other things as well.
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Lielac

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2014, 11:20:21 am »

Before we get more variety in armor, the armor system itself needs to be revamped. Because right now it's very simplistic and illogical. Helmets can't cover the face, at all. A shirt can, somehow, protect fingers but not hands. And even if you do mod in more armor pieces, civs will just randomly decide which armor pieces to actually use, even if they're all defined as common in their entity. And there are plenty of other things as well.

On making sure a civilization uses an item: COMMON only means they'll probably have it. You want FORCED to make absolutely certain an entity will have access to certain items.

... Which I now remember I modded into my versions of DF for tunics, trousers, and shoes, and then completely forgot I did so and so don't count when I'm enumerating the ways my play diverges from vanilla. But that's off-topic.
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Funk

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2014, 01:07:36 pm »

Id lower the coverage of all armour to no more than 95% so can get lucky blows.

For improveing the system id like it to be so each bit of armour selected what it covered with body tokens and how much coverage there is.
i.e.

Open face helmet
covers: head(XX%), ears(XX%)

Close face helmet
covers: head(XX%), ears(XX%), nose(XX%), mouth(XX%), eyes(XX%), lips(XX%)

The (XX%) is how well it covers that part a long mail shirt can cover the upper legs , but it has a massive slit down the middle so side coverage is poor, still it covers the lower chest fine.

maybe one day amour will have sub parts that can be damaged or interacted with i.e. visors raised and lowered
or a chest plate can have roundels and pauldrons
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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nwob

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2014, 08:04:46 pm »

I think making armour and weapons break under pressure would be much more important. Currently you can mod all those different pieces of armour, but not their effectivity much.

the thing is armor, even just mail, is very hard to break with any regular medieval weapon. A breastplate is practically impossible to pierce with a sword or a regular arrow.

Armor breakage would only happen over a long time or due to some extreme force.

When fighting a plate armoured opponent, a knight would generally hold the blade of his sword with one hand and the handle with the other, and attempt to drive it in one of the gaps in the plate (such as under the arms). Or, alternately, just dent in the helmet with a mace or something.

That being said, I agree an armour revamp is required.  Plate should be more cumbersome but also more protective, with specific weak points that are harder to hit.  It should probably also impair your fighting ability, to the extent that even the best trained armour users are not able to fight as effectively as they would in leather.
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Funk

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2014, 12:35:31 pm »

Well the good news is that attack speed and movement speed are to be separated, so like in RL heavy armour will slow movement but barely hinder attacking at all.
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Helari

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2014, 09:18:53 am »

That being said, I agree an armour revamp is required.  Plate should be more cumbersome but also more protective, with specific weak points that are harder to hit.  It should probably also impair your fighting ability, to the extent that even the best trained armour users are not able to fight as effectively as they would in leather.

Well made plate isn't as cumbersome as you'd think. I don't think actual fighting should be penalised except for maybe the lowest skill levels, just a bit more fatigue and slower movement.
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Funk

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2014, 05:10:16 pm »

You can run in armour, even cart wheels.
The main problem of moveimg in armour is that it's wight tires you out quicky.
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Dynastia

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2014, 10:46:55 am »

Just throwing this in...

Mail full-sleeve shirt == Hauberk
Mail semi-sleeve shirt == Haubergeon
Mail sleeveless == I don't think there's a legit proper name. Maybe go with 'mail vest'?
Mail Gauntlets == Mittens (gauntlets are plate)
Mail Leggings == Chausses
Mail Throat-Cover == Aventail

Plate boots == Sabaton
Plate lower-legs == Greaves/Schynbalds
Plate upper-legs == Tassets
Plate upper arms == Rerebrace (pauldrons are for shoulders)
Plate lower arms == Vambrace
Plate torso == Cuirass

And for the various joints...

Neck == Gorget
Shoulders == Pauldrons
Elbows == Couters
Hips == Faulds
Knees == Poleyns

There's so many types of helmets that it'd cram up the game trying to put them all in, but here's a few with increasing coverage.

Halfhelm == Top of head only
Spangen == Top and sides of head
Bascinet == Top, sides and back of head
Buckethelm == Entire head covered
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Eidre

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2014, 03:54:58 pm »

Another thought...although it would add complication, having full suits of armor built that way should confer some advantage over making a bunch of individual pieces and grafting them together.  The disadvantage would be the material and time taken in making whole suits of armor as opposed to (for example) just making mail shirts, helmets, and shields to quickly outfit your militia, or the ease of piece wise upgrades as more higher quality equipment becomes available (if your armorer makes a base quality suit of full plate you're kind of screwed until you can get him to make a better full suit).  The advantage conferred should probably be something like improved coverage (fewer gaps because all of the pieces were fitted to each other during design and construction).
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Helari

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Re: Suggestion for improved armour
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2014, 05:59:56 am »

Full suits of armour should just generally be very expensive and annoying to make while also more effective than they currently are.

edit: perhaps split the armor into even more pieces to make armor more resource and time demanding to make in dwarf mode.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 06:01:39 am by Helari »
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