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[Sean Mirrsen]

"Do you need to know how to use it" is something that pretty much all weapons have a 'yes' answer to. For instance, don't point a gun at an ally with your finger on the trigger. Or know how to set a timer or remote detonation on a bomb. Or that you don't use a kinetic amp to amplify your strength but rather to punch things. Besides, the whole point of Auxiliary is that they aren't directly controlled weapons like the gunner bot, or aren't meant to be weapons at all, like the cutting torch or vehicles.

Indirectly controlled weapons like the gunnerbot are "Auxiliary" by definition. You don't give them telepathic commands, you communicate your commands verbally or in text form, or otherwise. You do exert a measure of control over them, and any interaction with them requires the use of the Aux skill.

And no, there is no need to know not to point a weapon at a friendly in order to operate it. That's part of military training. Reloading, picking targets, as far as skill is concerned it's another matter entirely. All that matters is that you know how to activate the weapon. If activating it makes it kill something in the direction it's pointed, it's conventional. If activating it does something else, like kill you if you don't run away, or nothing unless you activate it in the precise moment it strikes on another man's face, it's unconventional. If activating it doesn't immediately do anything and you have to do something else before it starts working, it's Auxiliary. If activating and using it requires something besides your limbs/eyes/tongue/voice/other bodyparts, or if it involves or results in modification of your body, it's Exotic. I think that works.

[syvarris]

I'm pretty sure kin amps have an on/off switch.  On the side of the postage stamp bit.

So in theory, someone else should be able to flip that switch on your amp, then let you punch stuff, but it still uses UNC.


My personal opinion is that uncon makes zero sense and mostly exists as "the manipulator skill" with several other items tacked on to the side to make up for amp's superiority over manips.  And while a rewrite of the weapon skills would probably improve them, they work fine as is.  Plus a lot of people would have to drastically alter their sheets, and it would be hard to stop them from abusing that.

[Toaster]

I say it falls under gameplay abstraction and don't care.

[Xantalos]

I say it falls under gameplay abstraction and don't care.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I'm pretty sure kin amps have an on/off switch.  On the side of the postage stamp bit.

So in theory, someone else should be able to flip that switch on your amp, then let you punch stuff, but it still uses UNC.

It has an on/off switch, but it also has a trigger. Otherwise it'd spend all of its charges on amplifying your random hand motions. You must activate it shortly before you strike the target, the timing on that is crucial. It was even discussed between Faith and the Doctor when he was showing her his shockwave weapons.

[syvarris]

Didn't his bat shockwave thing have a central metal rod which provided the impact force?  It didn't have an activation button- the amps activated when they were hit by the rod.

Presumably, the amps have some sort of sensor that has a minimum force transfer required to activate them.  I'd say it's based on velocity changes, but then the bat wouldn't work.

Anyways, if there were some button you had to press at the exact moment of impact, how would people regularly punch their own limbs off by accident?  Why would that kin amp scale mail someone tried to make just detonate as soon as the user moved?  They were only turned on, not activated.


Oh, and I agree with the gameplay extraction thing.  I don't really care, I was just stating my opinion.

[Harry Baldman]

And no, there is no need to know not to point a weapon at a friendly in order to operate it. That's part of military training. Reloading, picking targets, as far as skill is concerned it's another matter entirely. All that matters is that you know how to activate the weapon. If activating it makes it kill something in the direction it's pointed, it's conventional. If activating it does something else, like kill you if you don't run away, or nothing unless you activate it in the precise moment it strikes on another man's face, it's unconventional. If activating it doesn't immediately do anything and you have to do something else before it starts working, it's Auxiliary. If activating and using it requires something besides your limbs/eyes/tongue/voice/other bodyparts, or if it involves or results in modification of your body, it's Exotic. I think that works.

Well, if you activate a field manipulator a certain way, similarly to how if you activate a bomb a certain way, and then don't run away rapidly, both are very likely to kill you. Considering that both of them have interfaces that you relay commands through, that makes the similarity run deeper. And a fission instigator, activated a certain way and pointed a certain way, behaves similarly.

And technically, tesla sabres and kinetic amps, once activated, kill things in the direction they are pointed in unless things go catastrophically wrong (and the second part is also true of conventional weapons), and the tesla arc doesn't necessarily do so due to being untamed lightning.

My personal opinion is that uncon makes zero sense and mostly exists as "the manipulator skill" with several other items tacked on to the side to make up for amp's superiority over manips.  And while a rewrite of the weapon skills would probably improve them, they work fine as is.  Plus a lot of people would have to drastically alter their sheets, and it would be hard to stop them from abusing that.

Pretty much what he said, with a good dose of

I say it falls under gameplay abstraction and don't care.

Man, I really shouldn't read the OOC thread. It's so easy to get caught up in arguments I don't actually care about.

[Kriellya]

Didn't his bat shockwave thing have a central metal rod which provided the impact force?  It didn't have an activation button- the amps activated when they were hit by the rod.

Nah, it had a button for turning off the amps. The damn thing would never stop otherwise, and would eventually either explode something (likely the metal rod achieving fusion or some such nonsense) or vibrate it's way out of whatever 'container' it was currently in. For some definition of 'container', which could include things like 'the Sword' and 'this gravity well'

[Toaster]

Man, I really shouldn't read the OOC thread. It's so easy to get caught up in arguments I don't actually care about.

Isn't that what the Internet is for?

[syvarris]

Didn't his bat shockwave thing have a central metal rod which provided the impact force?  It didn't have an activation button- the amps activated when they were hit by the rod.

Nah, it had a button for turning off the amps. The damn thing would never stop otherwise, and would eventually either explode something (likely the metal rod achieving fusion or some such nonsense) or vibrate it's way out of whatever 'container' it was currently in. For some definition of 'container', which could include things like 'the Sword' and 'this gravity well'

I meant activation in the sense of "amplify force now".  Something that would be used like a trigger.  Of course it has an on/off button, because that's pretty much mandatory with kin amps.

Although, that's one of the safer kin amp items to leave on, because you had to actually swing it and then stop in a very precise manner to activate the amps.  If you just let it sit somewhere, the amps wouldn't contact anything.

[Unholy_Pariah]

It can use some better phrasing and definitions here and there, but here's mine:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And Manipulators fall squarely under Auxiliary with it...

Replace "do you need to know how to use it beyond how to turn it on?" With "does it require knowledge of computer or vehicle operation?" And your flowchart works perfectly.

[Radio Controlled]

@ weapon talk: I pm'd PW a while ago to ask if modifying the stat/skill system was a possibility, seeing how the system is a bit too broad right now, I think (uncon skill being prime example). He said he didn't feel like changing mechanics in the middle of a game, to laborous and confusing for everybody, so it ain't happening.

I say it falls under gameplay abstraction and don't care.

Lucky us then, that nobody is forcing anyone at gunpoint to reply to, or even read, this thread or discussion.

[Xantalos]

I say it falls under gameplay abstraction and don't care.

Lucky us then, that nobody is forcing anyone at gunpoint to reply to, or even read, this thread or discussion.

Speak for yourself.

[Parisbre56]

I say it falls under gameplay abstraction and don't care.

Lucky us then, that nobody is forcing anyone at gunpoint to reply to, or even read, this thread or discussion.

Speak for yourself.

Eldritch abominations can be held at gunpoint?

Semi-relevant the first time I saw your new avatar I thought it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Then I zoomed in and saw what it really was and went "How the hell did my mind got those two confused?".

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, by SC's interpretation, it would cover grenades and smaller artillery as well. Probably other stuff, too.

Id have to say SC is correct in that grenades are unconventional because you need to pull the pin or hit the timer button, activation crap like that seems to make weapons fall under the unconventional category.

Small artillery on the other hand... id have to say it would probably be conventional if it uses iron sights or is carried by an avatar but would be Auxilary if its computer assisted. I cant really see how it could be unconventional.

1. SC argued that grenades were conventional, no unconventional.
2. Small artillery as in mortars.

If you could design a melee weapon that could create a shockwave in atmosphere that could work.

That's easy. The hard part is swinging it fast enough.

Also, getting a mission post in only now because I've been constantly receiving database error messages for most of today.

I think everybody has. There hasn't been any post made in the forums for those ~8 hours.

Bay12's going through a rocky week.

Semi-relevant the first time I saw your new avatar I thought it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Then I zoomed in and saw what it really was and went "How the hell did my mind got those two confused?".

Huh. He has a new avatar.


If you do read the xkcd archives backwards, resist the urge to see if explainxkcd has anything to say about it. Especially if you understand the joke already. It's interesting but consumes your time, becomes...addicting.