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[gogis]

You know what is the difference between Europe and Russia?

In Europe, if you'll delay a salary for a week you'll get a riot. In Russia if you delay a salary for a year you'll get "Uh. OK" and later their children say that is a great achievement to endure that kind of treatment.

You will get a riot right now here as well. I quit my lost job because my employee tried to enforce me to work from 11 till 19, when I insisted that I better cope with my schedule and rythm working 14 to 20. Yes I can afford that quirks because finding new job is like a week-two tops. Thats because our economy is just fine right now.
But when economy in collapse and quitting does nothing good because it's will cause even bigger state-scale havoc, you tighten your belt and grind through difficulties, not give up.

Varies. Some changed job. Some went farming. Some emigrated. Some started their own business. And our economy is in a bad state exactly because too much people acted like Russians and we don't have enough oil and gas to compensate that

You can't change job, because there is no jobs. Literally. And everybody farmed. You don't get the point. You don't give up when it's rough or you're done. Thats probably what differentiate Russians and Ukrainians.

[XXSockXX]

Well, actually Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary and Poland get 60-100% of their gas from Russia.

Those countries account for less then 10% of the EU economy and if you remove Poland (a net energy exporter which would benefit more then it would lose) from the list they account for less then 5%.  Remove Poland from the list and Germany's economy is 4 times the size of the remaining countries while France's economy is 3 times the size.

Sure. But even if they account for only 5% of the economy, we don't want them to freeze to death. It's not only the impact on the economy, it's also infrastructure issues. Remember, you can't just equate gas with energy, as it's used for heating, so you can't just use something else.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

But when economy in collapse and quitting does nothing good because it's will cause even bigger state-scale havoc, you tighten your belt and grind through difficulties, not give up.

Somehow oligarchs made billions during that period. Maybe exactly because they had little slaves who obediently grinded through difficulties?

Thats probably what differentiate Russians and Ukrainians.

There are a lot of that differentiate Russians and Ukrainians. For example if our government got a brilliant idea to move troops in Belarus\Moldova to protect Ethnic Ukrainians we would have all our country on the streets and Maydan would look like a party comparing to that

I like that kind of thinking. We are different, not one country, not one nation

[gogis]

England sailors and Spanish guerrillas? (where do you think that word comes from?)

I recommend you to watch this excelent documenatry
http://docuwiki.net/index.php?title=Napoleon_(PBS_Empires)

You emphasizing not *that* significant events just showing your real level of ignorance or level of brainwashing you received.

[Darvi]

Now that's just wrong. We both know that mainiac's brain is as dirty as they get

[gogis]

Russians thinking they were the primary defeater of Nappy is about as dumb as Americans thinking they deserve the credit for taking down Hitler.  Russia didn't do the most economic damage (the was England) and Russia didn't do the most military damage (the was Spain) and both England and Spain each did more economic and military damage then Russia.

Nice to know that the Ruskies are just as capable as the Americans in the chauvinism department.

You realize how huge discrepancy between active size of military force used in Peninsular War and Russian Campaign? Like real numbers? You either bad in math or you have very strange sources of information.

Sheer size of an army Napoleon raised to invade Russia was unprecedented.

edit: Suprisingly, I see Napoleon as most positive thing happened to Europe 

[mainiac]

Sure. But even if they account for only 5% of the economy, we don't want them to freeze to death. It's not only the impact on the economy, it's also infrastructure issues. Remember, you can't just equate gas with energy, as it's used for heating, so you can't just use something else.

The 75% of Europes natural gas that isn't Russian could cover a lot of the essential stuff though, natural gas is pretty fungible within the european community where the infrastructure is already in place.  If Europe wanted to cut imports by half their only talking about displacing 12.5% of their natural gas usage throughout the continent.  Unless Russia tries the King Cotton strategy Europe can just chose to only buy the fraction gas needed for heating homes in eastern europe while using the north sea for western natural gas needs and transmitting power east to replace electricity consumption in the east.

You realize how huge discrepancy between active size of military force used in Peninsular War and Russian Campaign? Like real numbers? You either bad in math or you have very strange sources of information.

You do realize the Peninsular War was a guerilla campaign, right?  More Frenchmen served in Spain itself then Russia and the spanish had the largest colonial empire in the world, which was of considerable economic importance even if it did get torn apart by the war.

[ivze]

Ukrainian Ranger, I would like to ask you, how do you see your own future and the future of your country?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Ukrainian Ranger, I would like to ask you, how do you see your own future and the future of your country?

Short term: Recession, lowering of social standards and spike of unemployment. That or war with Russia that I think is  very likely

Long term: That varies... It may be going Poland's way with eventual EU membership. It may be Maydan 3.0 if country will fail to change.  It may be splitting in two halves if Russia will be able to you exploit the instability. It may be a new authoritarian regime some time later.  We are at a crossroad

As for my personal future, that is not something easy to predict

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Ukraine route closures - message to all Airspace Users - update 31/03/14 at 1200 UTC

Eurocontrol is strictly following ICAO Convention on International Civil Aviation and will not recognise any unilateral declaration of air navigation service provision over any part of Ukrainian airspace other than from the Ukrainian authority.

A number of routes are closed WIE-UFN as well as UKFF (Simferopol) and UKFB (Sevastopol) airports.

 The Network Manager will:

 - reject all FPLs filed via the closed routes and all FPLs dep/dest UKFF and UKFB according to the following NOTAMs issued by the Ukrainian Authorities.

Crimea is de facto a part of Russia (c)

[Comrade P.]

UR, are you Ukrainians seriously preparing to war with Russia? What's your personal attitude?

[10ebbor10]

IIRC, UR's plan is to be swiftly defeated, then guerilla the Russians untill they get bored or the West actually does something.

[gogis]

You do realize the Peninsular War was a guerilla campaign, right?  More Frenchmen served in Spain itself then Russia and the spanish had the largest colonial empire in the world, which was of considerable economic importance even if it did get torn apart by the war.

Why you asking me like I have no idea what we talking about? I provided you with a link to incredibly long and thorough documentary of Napoleon life with hundreds of numbers and details provided about everything and you keep arguing. Spanish campaign started before Russian, was not supervised directly by Napoleon most of the time and economic woes doesnt affected ability of Napoleon to field enormously huge grand army to march towards their demise in Russian wastelands. And if you don't know simple facts that there was plenty of guerilla warfare in Russian campaign including scorched earth tactics, setting Moscow ablaze, cossacs raids etc then I have no intention to discuss this topic with you. You are way ignorant to simple historical facts, it's like arguing with idiot, which never works. You was caught so many times on posting bullshits it's beyond my patience.

> Poland is even less dependent on natural gas then Europe's average, primarily because they are a major coal producer and use much more coal.

No it's not that simple, because you need refit boiler stations infrastructure for heat purposes and replacing gas stoves in houses with electrical ones. Who is going to pay for that? It's grandiose money investment. You make it look like energy of one type is directly replacable with another.

Also http://www.energy.ca.gov/lng/safety.html . Another huge money sink.

> If Europe was willing to absorb some costs they could squash Russia like a bug.

No it's not. You need to read on upcoming talks with China on suborbitant amounts of $$$ on natural gas exports which is going to happen in 2018. I gave link already in this thread. If anything is going to happen, Europe will suffer more in long run. And they know that. And in reality, nothing is going wrong, because EU-Russia ties will grow even stronger. It's a win-win, while US posture is just a bully.

>That might limit the effectiveness of air supremacy but it's not going to stop stealth fighters from doing deep penetration missions >to clear the air.  If NATO forces can keep Russian planes far from the fight and operate freely close to friendly forces (where those >things wouldn't dare operate) then air superiority will still count for a lot.

>Let's discuss the advantages NATO has briefly

Yawn...

>1) Complete air superiority.

Oh, here we go.

Bla bla bla.
NATO aircraft... We have top notch SAM's for that (try to google it). Sheer fact that you unaware it's even exists not doing you any favor. Speaking in Civilization terms, it's stupid to use bombers against cities surrounded by mobile SAMS, if you can't clear land units with tanks, which you have in lower numbers (bar logistical nightmare to field it). NATO indeed have best offensive army in the world. But Russia have best defensive combo in the world. You can't beat SAM's + Tanks. It's not going to happen. And for the record, we have top notch rocket artillery too, but you need to make research yourself (google, starts with I).
Arguments about conscription/poor soldiers is stupid. These machines personnel is highly trained and on professional contracts. Nobody is going to send troops. It's rock-paper-scissors game. SAM against Air, Tanks against Troops, Rocket Artillery against... pretty much anything on land. It's an offensive nightmare. And NATO knows it. It's just you, who not aware.
Troop skills... you gotta be kidding be. We live in the age of materiel warfare, what troops you talking about? Shooting poorly trained arabs with ak's?

[DJ]

Can SAMs reliably shoot down Tomahawks and Predator drones?

[gogis]

Can SAMs reliably shoot down Tomahawks and Predator drones?

You realise it's not ever be going public? There is no better SAM's though, currently. Allegedly. Nobody is going to tell you classified information. I am pretty sure both sides went far to make stealth more stealthy and sams more sammy. We don't know end result. We are just common folks.

Although, you need to notice the trend that one side is heavily offensive, another side is heavily defensive. Let's talk about intents, huh