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Author Topic: UR's Post-USSR politics megathread  (Read 311850 times)

Zangi

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2640 on: March 14, 2014, 10:56:47 pm »

I suppose when you take the national pride out of the education system and general media... and replace it with shame and guilt.   You could stamp out Nationalism...
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Lagslayer

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2641 on: March 14, 2014, 11:11:12 pm »

I suppose when you take the national pride out of the education system and general media... and replace it with shame and guilt.   You could stamp out Nationalism...
I personally think a little national pride is healthy. It's important to take pride in who you are and where you came from, weather it be geographically, culturally, or ancestrally. And I don't care where you are from.

GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2642 on: March 14, 2014, 11:21:11 pm »

I suppose when you take the national pride out of the education system and general media... and replace it with shame and guilt.   You could stamp out Nationalism...

Yaaaaay shame and guilt.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2643 on: March 15, 2014, 01:01:22 am »

@constitutional stuff: Most European constitutions are not as old as the US one. I can see some problems with the US constitution, but ours is comparably new and shiny, and as such completely different and structured quite differently. It is a miracle the US never became a dictatorship, but apparently it works.

And it's funny to hear from a German citizen about how good a crushing defeat can be.
Germany wouldn't be where it is today without that defeat. It's a unique situation however, I'm not sure it's applicable to anywhere else, certainly not at all in Russia today. At least it made us question a lot of things, that is never a bad thing.

I suppose when you take the national pride out of the education system and general media... and replace it with shame and guilt.   You could stamp out Nationalism...
I personally think a little national pride is healthy. It's important to take pride in who you are and where you came from, weather it be geographically, culturally, or ancestrally. And I don't care where you are from.
I would say, Germany today has some national pride, but jingoistic nationalism is stamped out. Still nationalism and patriotism are more complicated issues than anywhere else.

Spoiler: Spoilered for tangent (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 01:09:01 am by XXSockXX »
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Descan

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2644 on: March 15, 2014, 02:27:13 am »

I suppose when you take the national pride out of the education system and general media... and replace it with shame and guilt.   You could stamp out Nationalism...
I personally think a little national pride is healthy. It's important to take pride in who you are and where you came from, weather it be geographically, culturally, or ancestrally. And I don't care where you are from.
I'd rather take pride in where I am or want to be, rather than where I come form.

See: Scottish Nationalism. And in the personal sense, I'm probably as much English or Irish as I am Scottish, but I'd rather the Scots than the Anglos, so that's why I'm a Scottish-Canadian nationalist than an Anglo-Canadian.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 02:29:19 am by Descan »
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Sheb

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2645 on: March 15, 2014, 04:15:46 am »

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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2646 on: March 15, 2014, 04:25:46 am »

Spoiler: Continued tangent (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 04:30:16 am by GrizzlyAdamz »
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Helgoland

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2647 on: March 15, 2014, 04:29:11 am »

Er, Helgoland, you're making the idea of less rivalry as unpalatable as possible there, talking about 'total surrender' & whatnot. Not to mention the idea is unattainable, as it was in the 1990s- you can't make a country go into 'total surrender' if it has nukes. Things would have gotten /really/ dicey when the soviet union collapsed if NATO had gone to occupy them or some shit like that.
I'm not saying it's desirable, I'm saying that it might be the only way for Russia to get over their desire to be a dominant power, eye-to-eye with America. Plus I've made suggestions for avoiding such a scenario, but the consensus was that their chance of success was rather low.
On war between nuclear powers: Interestingly, MAD still works in a conventional war - at each point each country does not benefit from using their nukes. Under the assumption that there are no General Rippers, it's completely possible for nuclear powers to attack each other without triggering the apocalypse. There's always the chance that the assumption is false, though...

Spoiler: On the other stuff (click to show/hide)

Sergarr: It may seem weird, but I don't want to imagine what Germany would look like without it. Crushing defeats are often the start of great transormations - Prussia, for example, only became great after the reforms prompted by the Napoleonic occupation. I don't wish for war, but war is better than a string of foul compromises that inhibit true change and renewal.
Getting true change and renewal without shooting each other would be even better, of course.

Ninjaedit: Yeah, it's nice - and it fits the tune of the BRD one! There have been several attempts to stitch the two together. And apparently there was the idea to adapt a Brecht poem as the post-1990 anthem, which... doesn't really seem like such a bad idea. Huh, just found out about this.
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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2648 on: March 15, 2014, 04:37:25 am »

This is very interesting, will have to read again tomorrow!  :)
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Helgoland

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2649 on: March 15, 2014, 04:50:12 am »

Fuck, did I really write that much?

In a few days, I'll see the guy I got the idea from - I'll try to get a more detailed account of his view. I hope it's shorter than three beers, though :D
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Sheb

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2650 on: March 15, 2014, 04:54:37 am »

Funnily enough the Deutschlandlied was written on Helgoland.  :p

Also, it's not unique to Germany. In Belgium, no one really know the anthem (We had a very funny video where our prime minister, asked to sing the anthem, started singing the French one). Speaking of the French anthem, it is really violent, as it started as a marching song for the revolutionary army. I remember friends in Austria shocked at the lyrics.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 05:03:53 am by Sheb »
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scrdest

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2651 on: March 15, 2014, 05:07:16 am »

How is the right to bear arms a positive right? It is certainly a very muddied case. If you had a clear-cut positive right, you wouldn't just be allowed to possess a firearm, you'd be entitled to one - i.e. should you wish to have a gun, someone else would be legally required to provide one.

On the other hand, it is not clearly something to be actively protected; still, I reckon that it's more of a kind of 'Congress shall make no law' (prohibiting possession of firearms, in this case) thing.
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Helgoland

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2652 on: March 15, 2014, 05:10:16 am »

I think I made a mistake with that example - the concept doesn't exist in German, it's quite new to me. Better example: Right to food?
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scrdest

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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2653 on: March 15, 2014, 05:13:38 am »

I think I made a mistake with that example - the concept doesn't exist in German, it's quite new to me. Better example: Right to food?

Ah, yes, that would be classical positive right. You want food, you have no food, X needs to give you food.
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Re: Russian intervention in Ukraine
« Reply #2654 on: March 15, 2014, 06:04:53 am »

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