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[GlyphGryph]

Yeah I checked it was Dutchling. My apologies.

Apology accepted. Thank you for that at least.

[gogis]

The laws against gays, imprisoning your own artists for political dissent? Do you claim to represent all Russians of all socio-economic backgrounds? What about races, nationalities, religions?

The "I don't see so it must not be true" gets said a lot here in America too. By middle and upper class white people, mostly, when talking about non-white poverty or social issues they don't want to address.

Also, I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to the other Russian with a decidedly less content viewpoint as you.

Law against gays - well, majority against gays. I had some fierce discussions about that topic, so I can tell you firsthand - most men I know strongly against gays. Democracy in action. People support it. I think it's sucks to be gay in Russia. I know some and they never expressed much happiness about whole thing. It's a reality to be beaten by some drunk bullies if you are gay.

"imprisoning your own artists for political dissent". Thats the funniest topic, actually. In fact, major uproar was caused by place where it's happened. All orthodox lunatics went ablaze to the point of "burn the witches" so repercussions was surprisingly harsh. Yeah. Political dissidents. Is that what western media tell you? It has nothing to do with content they singing. As I said, you can tell about polititians anything without repercussions.

"Do you claim to represent all Russians of all socio-economic backgrounds?"
Yes I do. My Votkinsk circle is all ranged from quite poor lads to petty criminals from childhood to govermental workeres to businessman to middle class office grunts. My Moscow circle is mostly young to middle aged IT professionals. Well, they are not poor, but whatever. Races? All workplaces had all post soviet block guys. No tension. Racist jokes are common. But nobody thinks it's offensive.
Religions - whatever, most people I know is not very religious.

"By middle and upper class white people, mostly, when talking about non-white poverty or social issues they don't want to address."

You need to understand, that there is no division by classes in your common sense. There is virtually no suburbs, people of different
"classes" live in same multiflat soviet block buildings. So you can't really build any shaded or delusional vision of quality of life. You can live with some poor and some rich people at the same floor. Obviously, when we talk about madly rich people, it's another thing. They have suburb house, but we talking about less than 1%. Alot less.

[Helgoland]

gogis, while I condemn Pussy Riot (they're... lacking in taste. Let's leave it at that.), surely you're aware of what happens to other (sensible) artists and critical journalists in Russia?

[Sonlirain]

Law against gays - well, majority against gays. I had some fierce discussions about that topic, so I can tell you firsthand - most men I know strongly against gays. Democracy in action. People support it. I think it's sucks to be gay in Russia. I know some and they never expressed much happiness about whole thing. It's a reality to be beaten by some drunk bullies if you are gay.

Now you've done it. the entire threaad will be derailed into talking about gays now.

It's funny how russians have to constantly prove to everyone that they're not camels and there are no polar bears walking on the streets eating people at random (unless it's the people who wrestle it down and snap its neck).
Even better that opinion somehow spills over to just about every slavic nation in existence... maybe aside of czech and slovaks for some odd reason.

[gogis]

gogis, while I condemn Pussy Riot (they're... lacking in taste. Let's leave it at that.), surely you're aware of what happens to other (sensible) artists and critical journalists in Russia?

Yeah. But it's always involved money and corruption topics. It's all very dirty and shady topics, but it's has very little to do with politics. It's undeniable that corruption in state is high. It's always was like that, be it Russian Empire, Soviets or present day.
But where are corruption is not high? I bet only some european nations can claim that.

[nenjin]

I find it incredibly hard to believe there aren't "Haves and have nots" in Russia, particularly because of the last decade of your economy. I'm not saying I don't think it's true....but I find it hard to accept simply from your anecdote. Also, that you honestly think you can speak for Russians of all backgrounds. I wouldn't claim to speak for Americans of all backgrounds, because we're all too different and hold many conflicting viewpoints.

Is that what western media tell you? It has nothing to do with content they singing. As I said, you can tell about polititians anything without repercussions.

As opposed to....just Russian media? Put it this way. In the West, you can say something vulgar AND political and not land in jail indefinitely. And perhaps the reason you don't end up being punished for your political view point is you didn't publicly embarrass your government to the degree the West noticed.

It's a reality to be beaten by some drunk bullies if you are gay.

Oh, it's the same here too. The difference is, we got rid of (the most egregious) examples of state-sponsored discrimination against gays. You might be practicing democracy, but it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of human rights.

It's funny how russians have to constantly prove to everyone that they're not camels and there are no polar bears walking on the streets eating people at random (unless it's the people who wrestle it down and snap its neck).

Oh please. I went to school with a woman from Russia, a co-worker was from a Bloc country. The last time I watched Rocky & Bulwinkle, I was 10. What we're asking for is examples and context. Yes, there are Americans who literally consume entertainment as truth, and those people suck. Let's rise above the lowest common denominator here.

[Helgoland]

gogis: Everywhere west of Russia Belarus until you start hitting China. There's literally no country there that's more corrupt than Russia.

And corruption certainly is a - if not the - political topic. A thing is good if it fulfils its purpose well. (Aristotle, and incredibly useful in surprisingly many areas.) As corruption hinders the purpose that is set for the state by the political process, it is the one thing that all political directions (minus cleptocracy) must work to abolish. The fight against corruption is the only way for Russia to ever get on the West's level!

[olemars]

I, for one, like to do my research rather than accept whatever's currently on the front page as truth, so here is some links with background on the language law in question:

BBC article on the law's passage and ensuing riots in 2012
RT coverage of the same event
Kyiv Post

OSCE criticism of the law before it was passed

Illuminating analysis by a Ukrainian scientist.

I gather that this law was extremely controversial back then too, and seen at least as much as an attack on the Ukrainian language as its attempted repeal is seen by russians as an attack on their rigihts. This law might actually have helped get Svoboda their seats in parliament.

[GlyphGryph]

Yeah. But it's always involved money and corruption topics. It's all very dirty and shady topics, but it's has very little to do with politics. It's undeniable that corruption in state is high. It's always was like that, be it Russian Empire, Soviets or present day.
But where are corruption is not high? I bet only some european nations can claim that.

If you think corruption has nothing to do with politics... whoo. Corruption is probably one of the most insidious and determined political motivators in history. And it's the thing that probably played the largest role in getting Russia into the trouble it got in in 90s (For all the complaints lodged against the West, the problems wouldn't have occurred without corrupt Russian's leading the charge).

It's funny, but most people see corruption, in the US, as a serious and real issue, many even see it as one of the biggest issues our country faces, and a large amount of effort is dedicated here to fighting it (even if it does feel like 2 steps forward one step back).

I would be horrified to hear a fellow countryman in my own country say "It's undeniable that corruption in state is high." and then move to minimize the impact of the statement.

Olemars - thanks for the sources.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

This law might actually have helped get Svoboda their seats in parliament.

Don't even doubt it. Cancellation of that law is one of electoral promises. Yep it should have been done later but the party lacks political wisdom sometimes and pushed as soon as possible

[GrizzlyAdamz]

snip
It's funny, but most people see corruption, in the US, as a serious and real issue, many even see it as one of the biggest issues our country faces, and a large amount of effort is dedicated here to fighting it (even if it does feel like 2 steps forward one step back).

I would be horrified to hear a fellow countryman in my own country say "It's undeniable that corruption in state is high." and then move to minimize the impact of the statement.

Olemars - thanks for the sources.

Pretty much this.
People get caught doing corrupt crap in the west, they get thrummed out of office, their political career ends, they get jail time.
It might not be eradicated, (and at least in the US, recent court decisions have been counter-productive, to our chagrin), but if it is undertaken it's done with much greater surreptitiousness, and is never hand-waved by the general public.
Woo a culture of integrity!

[gogis]

I find it incredibly hard to believe there aren't "Haves and have nots" in Russia, particularly because of the last decade of your economy. I'm not saying I don't think it's true....but I find it hard to accept simply from your anecdote. Also, that you honestly think you can speak for Russians of all backgrounds. I wouldn't claim to speak for Americans of all backgrounds, because we're all too different and hold many conflicting viewpoints.

I was born in USSR, I survived 80's,  I survived 90's (thats was very different hardships), I lived in cities of very different prosperity levels, then I traveled world (not much but still), so I kind of entitled to some opinion, ain't I? It's impossible to believe to anecdotical evidence if you biased to person and his origin, though.

As opposed to....just Russian media? Put it this way. In the West, you can say something vulgar AND political and not land in jail indefinitely. And perhaps the reason you don't end up being punished for your political view point is you didn't publicly embarrass your government to the degree the West noticed.

Before last presidential elections you could hear all kind of embarassing stuff about goverment on talk shows/tv programmes. Internet was all buzzing about Navalny uncoverings. Opposition parties went all out, really. You don't know that because you don't watch our television / read our media. Like I said, party of majority was called as "party of crooks and thieves" (and still is) everywhere. I bet you will be sued in US, aint ya?

[miljan]

gogis: Everywhere west of Russia Belarus until you start hitting China. There's literally no country there that's more corrupt than Russia.

How do you know it?

[GlyphGryph]

Before last presidential elections you could hear all kind of embarassing stuff about goverment on talk shows/tv programmes. Internet was all buzzing about Navalny uncoverings. Opposition parties went all out, really. You don't know that because you don't watch our television / read our media. Like I said, party of majority was called as "party of crooks and thieves" (and still is) everywhere. I bet you will be sued in US, aint ya?

For what? Criticizing the party in power (or any politician, really)? No way. US is sue-happy for a lot of things, but 'public figures' have very little in the way of protections, and any politician that tried to sue someone criticizing them would be laughed at and hammered over it. (Not to say some of them don't try anyway, some politicians can be REALLY DUMB)

[GrizzlyAdamz]

snip
Before last presidential elections you could hear all kind of embarassing stuff about goverment on talk shows/tv programmes. Internet was all buzzing about Navalny uncoverings. Opposition parties went all out, really. You don't know that because you don't watch our television / read our media. Like I said, party of majority was called as "party of crooks and thieves" (and still is) everywhere. I bet you will be sued in US, aint ya?

Nah, but they'd face a counter-smear campaign and be accused of 'dirty campaign tactics'. The shaming would be real. (woo slang- it would be pronounced/felt/impactful)
Political science is one of the worst inventions of humankind.