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[Knit tie]

Well, about nukes, I don't believe their number will increase significantly following the Ukrainian crisis. Most countries that want nukes are either armed already or too poor to afford them right now.

The problem is that many more countries will  add to "want nukes" list seeing that all treaties are paper and nothing more.  Dozens of countries are capable to do nukes with relative ease

I believe the situation will improve significantly when we finally depose Putin and scapegoat rightly blame on him all the failures of his administration.

EDIT: What the effervescent airborne fuck does Kievan Rus have to do with the current situation? You might as well bring up Italy invading Greece because it was once part of the Roman Empire.

[olemars]

olemars: by their very nature, the deals on the table were mutually exclusive. It was trade agreement with Europe vs custom union with Russia, EU vs Eurasian Union.

I would say that customs union is exactly a construct by Putin (with some help from Nazarbayev) to lock in the members with Russia and largely isolate them from the rest of the world, to the point of making even WTO membership difficult. I can say lots of bad things about the EU, but it's at least far less of a lock-in. It's also quite possible to have a comprehensive trade agreement with the EU and not be part of its customs union, like Norway. As an aside, we also have an agreement with Russia whcih means residents of the regions along the common border (Finnmark and Murmansk) can cross freely.

I'm pretty sure the EU and the rest of europe would much much rather have a chill Russia&friends to do business with rather than the mess that's happened now. Which is why the idea that european governments would be at all interested in seeing Ukraine or Russia destabilized is as insane as the rest of the propaganda. Even the rather small ompany I work for is working on a contract with a russian company these days, and I bet my boss is pacing around and muttering right now. Not to mention my russian and ukrainian friends and coworkers who are all worried. And so am I.

[gogis]

Frankly I think non-proliferation was a lost cause anyway, beyond cost-cutting measures for the existing nuclear powers. In the case of Ukraine, that was part of the dissolution of the USSR anyway, so a rather special case. And that treaty that promised never to invade, well, Russia considers it invalid as it doesn't recognize the government, so that's that.

But it's kind of historically true. I recommend exellent Europa Universalis series game here. Not even country for some game periods, but regions...

Would you support Polish army marching into Lviv, then? Same logic.

Thats not even ever to be the same, jesus. Russians never liberated Polish/Lithuanian lands. Or maybe some bit I dont recall. But there was a lot of cooperation and liberating with Ukraine.
And, after all, did you ever heard Warsaw Rus? Krakow Rus?
But I defenitely heard Kievan Rus, did I?

It is perfectly clear that Russia sees itself as a successor to the Kievan Rus. That does not mean it owns Kiev today. Or that it can just go ahead and take Crimea because that was Russian territory once.
This is not some computer game.
And you didn't answer the question. Lviv was a Polish city until 1939. Similarly Königsberg/Kaliningrad was a German city until 1945. By your logic, that means Poland and Germany should just march in and take them back?

Yes, thats could happen. You will be naive to belive otherwise. Again. You brought up Kievan Rus. In reality, this is Crimea and access to Black Sea. Nothing more. It's huge

What? You brought up Kievan Rus, I marked it for you.
The issue is the sovereignty of a country, in this case Ukraine's, since Crimea is part of Ukraine.
And let me tell you as a German and a European that nobody intends to take Kaliningrad or Lviv. If you don't believe that much, I'm afraid you are seriously misinformed.

Do you swear for for future generations? You misunderstanding me completely all they way in all that damn thread. You treat me like all I am saying like it's my opinion. I tell you, *this could happen*. This does not imply nothing. I tell you that in some future it could happen, because there is a *CASUS BELLI* thats it.

[Owlbread]

So Scotland has a casus belli to annex Northern Ireland given that it was at one time part of the ancient kingdom of Dal Riata?

[gogis]

So Scotland has a casus belli to annex Northern Ireland given that it was at one time part of the ancient kingdom of Dal Riata?

Could you swear it's never going to happen?

[Ghazkull]

*looks at thread, sees the gogis UR and others weird discussion.

starts laughing madly at the magnitudes of miscommunication going on there before choking on his food*

guys i just think you are talking miles past each other. While i still don't get what gogis means exactly, i think you guys are misunderstanding him in some way...just throwing that in here, propably not very helpful but meh.

*goes back to watching the thread interestingly*

also i would say something about burningpets arguments from earlier but that was a) ten pages ago and b) if it's me that drags that particular discussion about the difference of nationalism and neo-nazies back up i propably gonna shoot myself...

[Knit tie]

So Scotland has a casus belli to annex Northern Ireland given that it was at one time part of the ancient kingdom of Dal Riata?

Could you swear it's never going to happen?

I can, because Scottish society has advanced past the point where they care about nationalism more than they believe in globalism. Unless they somehow regress, probably due to a cataclysm of some sorts, they won't care about conquest.

[Owlbread]

Could you swear it's never going to happen?

In the same way that I can't swear the population of the USA will never convert en masse to zoroastrianism.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Could you swear it's never going to happen?

In the same way that I can't swear the population of the USA will never convert en masse to zoroastrianism.

Well, we do have the third largest population of Zoroastrians in the world...

[XXSockXX]

Do you swear for for future generations? You misunderstanding me completely all they way in all that damn thread. You treat me like all I am saying like it's my opinion. I tell you, *this could happen*. This does not imply nothing. I tell you that in some future it could happen, because there is a *CASUS BELLI* thats it.

Yeah, I think we keep misunderstanding each other.
"This could happen" is not an argument, it's completely unfounded. If you observe current politics at all you know it is not going to. And speculating about "future generations" is besides the point really. Maybe future generations of Mongolians will re-conquer Russia, maybe not. That doesn't really matter at all when we are talking about stuff that is actually happening.
Life is not a strategy game, "casus belli" is not as simple a concept in reality as in a Paradox game.

The point I was trying to explain to you is this: If Poland marched troops into Ukraine over Lviv, or Germany marched troops into Russia over Königsberg, you would probably consider that wrong. What Russia is doing now in Crimea is the same thing, because Ukraine is a sovereign country.

[Bouchart]

Do you think Putin will win the Nobel Peace Prize?

[Dutchling]

So is this legit?

[Owlbread]

Seems so. Dissent seems to be bubbling away in the American branch of Russia Today, given that other anchorwoman who chose to "speak out" against the Russian government's actions in Crimea.

I'm pleased about this, don't get me wrong, but this doesn't sit right with me. The Russian governments under Yeltsin, Putin and Medvedev have done far worse things than the invasion of Ukraine but nobody bothered to speak out like this. I have a feeling it's because Ukrainians are famous, white, European, predominantly Christian and on the whole straight.

[GlyphGryph]

People only ever end up standing up for those they have sympathy for, regardless of whether they should have stood up sooner.

This sits no more poorly with me than the wave of support for homosexuality and gay marriage in the US, even though those people probably should have done it BEFORE it was popular and STILL only support the most mainstream sort of divergent sexuality.

That it's happening at all is a good thing, even if it should have happened earlier, is what I'm saying.

[Dutchling]

Putin not yet ready to criminalize thoughtcrime but is getting pretty close.


Okay, something slightly less sensational: NATO Press Conference

As you will recall, NATO made a decision back in 2008 at the NATO Summit in Bucharest that Ukraine and by the way also Georgia will become members of NATO, provided of course they so wish and provided they fulfilled the necessary criteria. This decision stands.