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[XXSockXX]

The new Ukrainian government has reverted a law that made Russian an official language. That's not a great thing when roughly 30% of Ukrainians have Russian as their first language. Besides that it's also angering Russia, which is not a smart move.

Now you see how important language politics is to the Ukraine. In some respects this isn't as big a derail as it may seem. Perhaps some Russophone Ukrainians would make the same arguments we have been making about national identities and language:

Right, this isn't really much of a derail, language politics are somewhat relevant here. The Ukrainian language is much more widely used than Belorussian, but Russian is also used by a fair amount of Ukrainians, which makes this decision a bit problematic.

It's almost like raiding Gaddafi's compound. In some respects that's a good indicator of just how screwed up a political establishment was. It's a shame you can only see it after the fall, like when you cut down a tree to see the rings so you can work out its age.

Contrary to what I said earlier, correspondents who visited Gaddafi's and Saddam's palaces too think now that Yanukovych actually topped them in terms of material excess.

[Kicior]

I don't see the point of keeping a language on life support. It's not like Belarus and Russia can't remain separate countries if both populations will speak only Russian (even though "us versus them"

mentality is much easier to keep if you don't speak the same language I guess).

It's actually more important than you'd think. There are almost no instances of nations remaining separate in any meaningful way whilst speaking the exact same language. I know many countries speak French

and English and so on, but even in cases like Australia, USA and the UK linguistic differences are there in the accents which are often badges of national pride. In some instances, such as in Wales, language

goes far deeper than just a badge of national pride. You could argue that it "is" the nation.

Like Germany and Austria and Liechtenstein and partially Switzerland. Like pretty much all the countries of South America, and nearly all the Balkan states. Hell, I'm pretty sure there will be more places-inhabitated-by-people-speaking-the-same-language-but-being-separate-countries-nonetheless than countries that have more than one official language. Allright, it's not 100% EXACTLY THE SAME WITH NO DIFFERENCES WHATSOEVER.
National pride - OK, I get it but what's the point of increasing the number of nations? Why shouldn't people be proud of the same things?

I think it somewhat ridiculous to try and preserve Belorussian when the belorussians dont care for it...let it die.

A lot of things will die out if we have that attitude. What's the point in preserving wild cats in Scotland? There's no practical use to them, they just kill pheasants and grouse and make life harder for

estate owners. They're a nuisance, a pest. They don't occupy any important role in the ecosystem because there's other predators. The only people that genuinely like them are tourists and lowlanders and

idealists like me. Who cares there's only 13 purebreds left in the wild at the most? Just let them die out.

They are so CUTE <3 (but it's a matter of taste)

Some people like to suggest that languages are inherently about practicality and are therefore not subject to the same sort of moral reasoning as we apply to animal conservation. To some, languages are like

tools or something, I don't know. If there's nobody to speak to, why bother learning the language? Languages aren't just practical though, otherwise we wouldn't be so attached to them.

The thing is, you seem to be more attached to the Belorusian language than the Belorusians (btw. why is there double s in Russian but only one in Belorusian?) themselves.

Now you see how important language politics is to the Ukraine. In some respects this isn't as big a derail as it may seem. Perhaps some Russophone Ukrainians would make the same arguments we have been making

about national identities and language:

"Why is it such a problem that Ukraine should speak the same language as Russia?"
"Because then it would probably erode their national identity and lead to union with Russia."
"Why is it such a problem that Ukraine is united with Russia?"

And so on and so forth.

Preserving a language can make sense form political point of view (like revival of Hebrew to give Jews coming to Israel from all over the world somethinng in common) and I think it's the most important reason when it comes to preserving Ukrainian and Belarusian. But apart Russia being a potential problem (so the more people will be "us" instead of "them" the better... for us ) I don't really see the point of dividing nations.

INB4 Guardian says "FILTHY WESTERNERS ARE TRYING TO CREATE FIFTH COLUMN BUT LUCKILY THEY ARE FAILING, RUSSIAN SPEAKING PEOPLE STRONK".

Oh, and a compulsory Godwin so no one else has to use it

We need to divide Poland's many different ethnic groups up into as many parts and splinter groups as possible  (...) we shall have to endeavor to recognize and nurture as many individual peoples as possible; that is, in addition to the Poles and Jews also the Ukrainians, the Byelorussians, the Gorals (Goralen), Lemcos (Lemken), and the Cashubes (Kaschuben). And if there are any other splinter peoples to be found anywhere, then these too.

I wish to say by this that we have the greatest interest in not uniting the population of the East, but, on the contrary, in dividing it into as many parts and splinters as possible.

[XXSockXX]

Anyway, the demotion of Russian from official language status ties in perfectly with the Russian perception of Russians in Ukraine being in danger of oppression. So, that's not good.

[Sheb]

Does Ukrainian law allow double-citizenship?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It won't be for long if Right Sector gets any power.

[XXSockXX]

Does Ukrainian law allow double-citizenship?

No, it doesn't.
However Russia has been known to hand out passports to ethnic Russians in other countries, so there probably are many Ukrainians with dual citizenship.

[Sheb]

Yeah, that's the classic Russian tactic of manufacturing citizens to protect.

[Owlbread]

Spoiler: In response to Kicior (click to show/hide)

Like Germany and Austria and Liechtenstein and partially Switzerland. Like pretty much all the countries of South America, and nearly all the Balkan states. Hell, I'm pretty sure there will be more places-inhabitated-by-people-speaking-the-same-language-but-being-separate-countries-nonetheless than countries that have more than one official language. Allright, it's not 100% EXACTLY THE SAME WITH NO DIFFERENCES WHATSOEVER.

You have missed my point, good sir.

National pride - OK, I get it but what's the point of increasing the number of nations? Why shouldn't people be proud of the same things?

That is a vast philosophical question that is hard to answer in this thread. Perhaps we could discuss it through PMs. It's not really a matter of "increasing the number" anyway, the number already exists. It's a matter of ensuring that number stays about the same.

The thing is, you seem to be more attached to the Belorusian language than the Belorusians (btw. why is there double s in Russian but only one in Belorusian?) themselves.

Not all Belarusians, though. As I have said in the past the language is associated currently with the opposition.  The reason why there is only one S is that I am using the Belarusian nationalist spelling. "Byelorussian" was the old Imperial-style spelling that more clearly illustrates the "Russian" nature of Belarusians. Interestingly though "Belarusian" is actually the current official denonym in English.

Preserving a language can make sense form political point of view (like revival of Hebrew to give Jews coming to Israel from all over the world somethinng in common) and I think it's the most important reason when it comes to preserving Ukrainian and Belarusian. But apart Russia being a potential problem (so the more people will be "us" instead of "them" the better... for us ) I don't really see the point of dividing nations.

We aren't dividing nations though, the divisions already exist. But we're back to that question about the need for nations to exist and whether we should embrace globalization, cultural homogenization and all the rest of it. They go beyond the bounds of this thread though.

In more relevant news:

Dmitri Medvedev has stated that Ukraine's current government is not legitimate. Very curious given Russia's conduct in Chechnya when a democratically elected independent Chechen government were overthrown by Russian troops and replaced by puppets. That was the second attempt though, the previous one was an attempted coup shortly after the government was elected (buzz word for the Russian gov. about Ukraine now) financed by Russia and supported by some Russian special forces, but that failed miserably.

Why is this relevant, you ask? Why should Owlbread bring the Chechens into it yet again? Because Mr. Putin, the man who has his hand firmly up Medvedev's backside, was Prime Minister when the Ichkerian government was overthrown and was basically floating around in the background as leading member/later head of the KGB and various other things from the very beginning.

[XXSockXX]

Yeah, that's all bad news. I'm still thinking that a military intervention scenario is unlikely, but for now it most certainly means that Russia will end it's credit program, which should make Ukraine's financial problems much worse.

[Comrade P.]

Former head of "Nativ", Israel secret service, about situation in Ukraine (video in russian)

[10ebbor10]

Any chance for a summary. Because google's voice recognition technology has not yet advanced to the point were it can output something sensible, especially not after running it through google translate.

[Comrade P.]

Well, the general thing I intended to deliver is the specific Jewish manner of speech, which is awesome

Spoiler: A short summary of things said in video (click to show/hide)

On the topic spoken, he is saying that Ukraine is not splitting up until everyone really wants to split, Russia is not giving money to Ukraine until they cease any anti-russian propaganda, which can be occasionally seen on Maidan right now, America can never understand how the business is done in Ukraine and should fuck off. Europe wants to help? He estimated 50-100 billion dollars worth of that help, which includes restructuring whole Ukrainian economics.

[10ebbor10]

For that money I think you can pretty much buy Ukraine. I mean, it's not like we don't have the money (we kind-of do have such reserves) but still...

[olemars]

I've seen estimates that Ukraine might need €35 billion in support over the next two years to avoid going bankrupt, so the figure isn't that far off. A lot of that can probably be raised by confiscating the bank accounts of certain people though.

[XXSockXX]

Yeah, Ukraine's Ministry of Finance say they need 35 billion dollar to not go bankrupt till 2015. For comparison, Ukraine's richest oligarch Rinat Achmetov, a Yanukovych supporter currently supposed to be on the run in the Donetsk area, has an estimated fortune of 16 billion.
The question is where all the money of the old regime actually is, probably Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Cyprus or the Carribean.