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Author Topic: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor  (Read 49353 times)

Cthulhu

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #300 on: October 12, 2014, 02:17:26 pm »

That also gets into the thing a lot of people into working political critique into artforms seem to miss is that politically critiquing art isn't about finding things like this in a book and spanking it and saying it's a bad book and you shouldn't read it.

I read somewhere they took a lot of cues for uruk behavior in the game from humans in extreme situations like World War 1.  They've got a society where you acquire the resources you need (manflesh, grog, slaves, soldiers, etc.) either by being strong enough to take and keep them or by kowtowing to someone else who is those things.  It's a society that can exist and has in real life. 

It's obviously more complex than the non-uruk characters are giving it credit and it's as much based in the extreme circumstances of where they live and who they work for as in any inherent nastiness coming from their breeding.

But that doesn't immediately translate to "boo hoo it's a white male power fantasy about enslaving people of color bad monolith" unless you're writing a Freshman critical theory paper or you want to write an article that'll get lots of pageviews.

Not everything needs to be political and even when something is political it doesn't always have to be taken in the same direction.  I don't think anyone would seriously say that Talion and Celebrimbor are 100% good guys.  THey, like the uruks, are in an extreme situation and behaving in extreme ways.
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #301 on: October 12, 2014, 02:21:13 pm »

I have to wonder, if Sauron was successful in conquering Middle-Earth, that would mean that the Uruks wouldn't be in an extreme situation.  So, if they were behaving that way due to their extreme situation, would they continue to behave the same, or differently?
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dennislp3

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #302 on: October 12, 2014, 02:21:53 pm »

Making it a race issue is ridiculous in my opinion...but I don't want to get into that or it will be a long winded reply lol

As for if Sauron won...I would think they might start to take on a more civilized tone...but that would be a long, slow, and mostly unlikely process
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kaian-a-coel

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #303 on: October 12, 2014, 02:29:29 pm »

I have to wonder, if Sauron was successful in conquering Middle-Earth, that would mean that the Uruks wouldn't be in an extreme situation.  So, if they were behaving that way due to their extreme situation, would they continue to behave the same, or differently?
Knowing Sauron, he would keep the situation extreme as (if) the behaviour of orcs in this situation suits him.
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Cthulhu

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #304 on: October 12, 2014, 02:38:18 pm »

I have to wonder, if Sauron was successful in conquering Middle-Earth, that would mean that the Uruks wouldn't be in an extreme situation.  So, if they were behaving that way due to their extreme situation, would they continue to behave the same, or differently?

Sauron would've eventually despoiled all of Middle Earth the way he despoiled Mordor.  The only thing about the situation that would change is the scope.

Extreme situations-wise that's what I read, I don't know how much of it they utilized.  Obviously Uruks aren't just normal friendly dudes pushed to do terrible things but at the same time it's obvious their society is more complex than a faceless mass of dumb evil brutes.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 02:48:55 pm by Cthulhu »
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monkey

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #305 on: October 12, 2014, 02:57:49 pm »

Sauron would've eventually despoiled all of Middle Earth the way he despoiled Mordor. 

Lies, nothing but lies. Tolkien was a liar.
For the true story of Middle-Earth, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer  :P
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Sordid

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #306 on: October 12, 2014, 03:42:55 pm »

Yeah, Shadow of Mordor's story is actually really damn dark and IMO it's clearly a case of evil versus evil.


Shadow of Mordor is basically the fantasy equivalent of Spec Ops: The Line. You think you're playing a hero but you're actually not. Only this game isn't nearly as ham-fisted about the whole thing and doesn't beat you over the head with its message.

All of this of course goes right over the heads of the vast majority of people who play the game. "We're a generic fantasy hero killing generic fantasy orcs, yay!"

Yeah agreed.  Even Talion often expresses doubt about what they're doing, and the elf coldly reassures him that the ends justify the means.

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« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 04:57:13 pm by Sordid »
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Rakonas

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #307 on: October 12, 2014, 04:38:12 pm »

I have to wonder, if Sauron was successful in conquering Middle-Earth, that would mean that the Uruks wouldn't be in an extreme situation.  So, if they were behaving that way due to their extreme situation, would they continue to behave the same, or differently?
Orcs are naturally evil in Arda. They're twisted forms of actual beings to suit Morgoth's desire for power. Conquering all of Middle Earth would not change their nature and their very existence is an affront to the Valar.

In regards to the Orcs/Uruk debate: These are not Uruk-hai like Saruman's at all. The game uses Uruk to refer to literally every orc, and it's ridiculous to believe that every orc in Mordor at this time was an Uruk-Hai. There's even that one character you first raise to warchief who is a scrawny little goblin. There's nothing wrong with using Orc instead of Uruk, the game developers mostly did it for style/uniqueness, every other game involves killing orcs but Uruks are uniquely tolkien.
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Rolan7

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #308 on: October 12, 2014, 05:01:25 pm »

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marples

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #309 on: October 12, 2014, 05:23:07 pm »

In regards to the Orcs/Uruk debate: These are not Uruk-hai like Saruman's at all. The game uses Uruk to refer to literally every orc, and it's ridiculous to believe that every orc in Mordor at this time was an Uruk-Hai. There's even that one character you first raise to warchief who is a scrawny little goblin. There's nothing wrong with using Orc instead of Uruk, the game developers mostly did it for style/uniqueness, every other game involves killing orcs but Uruks are uniquely tolkien.

I agree on some points, but whilst all Uruk are orcs, not all Orcs are Uruk. Uruk is just a contraction made by Men for Uruk-Hai.
The Uruk-Hai were originally created by Sauron not Saruman (but it is likely the method for creation was passed along). The Uruk-Hai were the ones responsible for sacking Osgiliath and the only members of the orc race that operate effectively in daylight. It's doubtful that the majority of the Host of Mordor were Uruk, certainly not the amount seen in the game. Certain models used in the game are definitely just common orcs (Ratbag for instance) but there are a few that fit the description of Uruk. It may have been a work around for the game creators to have large numbers of Orcs working during the day with no sign of discomfort.

What also puzzled me was the Rancor beast like Gruag. Surely these should have been rogue Olog-Hai.
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Digital Hellhound

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #310 on: October 12, 2014, 11:08:03 pm »

Sauron is stated to be cross-breeding Olog-hai trolls with the graugs and trolls-who-turn-to-stone. The Orcs also have to be Uruk - regular Orcs can't stand sunlight, and Mordor is still sunny at this time. I was personally sure the smaller, scrawnier Uruks had to be regular Orcs, but apparently not.
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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #311 on: October 13, 2014, 08:46:22 am »

People are still going on about this?

Here's the rub, guys- Original Tolkien doesn't apply here. It's using warped canon.
Look at my logics- it makes the whole thing kinda simple.

1. Original Tolkien- only Orcs and Fighting Uruk-Hai. Goblin, hobgoblin and all etcetera is just tossed in as synonyms.
2. Tolkien Rewrites- heaps of stuff changes- including the classifications of misty mountain orcs, goblins, gundabad and mordor orcs.
2. Movie Era- The literalness of the movies solidifies some lore which was ambiguous. Uruk-Hai become twisted men, just as Orcs are twisted elves. Goblins become a solid race of their own.
3. Games- probably the most lore-bending- particularly in the BFME and BFME2 franchise, as unit slots need to be filled. Orcs are now divided by region and species along with trolls- goblins are their own specific race of sub-humanoids. "Uruk" becomes the term for larger, smarter Orks out of Mordor- much like Orc Alphas. They start as Orc leaders and soon start existing in their own tribes. LOTRO and TA: Total War jump right on this.

Ergo- the "Uruks" in SoM are NOT Uruk-Hai.

Here's other proof.
Chronologically it's impossible. Saruman was the first to successfully create Uruk-Hai, and he did it during the time directly preceding lord of the rings- as he had to kidnap people from the nearby lands. Judging by the fact that it is immediately after the re-emergence of Sauron, and gollum is still in Mordor, we know this is far before even the time of Bilbo.
In game canon it's confirmed- During the game Celebrimbor mentions that the Uruk are twisted versions of "his kind"- ergo, elves, not men.
Plus it's anatomically unlikely. Uruks are said to stand at or just below the height of men whilst orcs are stunted and relatively tiny. The only creature in the entire area who is at least a head shorter is Ratbag, and it's pretty clear he's a runt.

So, tl;dr- Tolkien original is ignored by the majority of Tolkien-world writers now, and SoM has the Uruks as the movie/games era Uruk- which is a bigger smarter breed of Orc.
They are NOT Uruk-Hai.


Again- disclaimer- this is about the Game's interpretation. Obviously fans will never agree- but the GAME has them as very cut-and-dried.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 09:01:44 am by Tack »
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #312 on: October 13, 2014, 10:57:03 am »

... Uruk-hai are the same thing as Uruks. And yes, they did start in the second age in Mordor first. You're referring specifically to Isengards 'fighting uruk-hai', which in fact didn't exist until the third age. Mordor's Black-Uruks [Uruk is just a colloquialism] were there long before Isengard's. Shadow of Mordor takes place at the beginning of Sauron's domination of Mordor, where it's documented that this is the first appearance of Sauron's "Uruks" in other LOTR lore.

Your point #1 is also completely wrong, by the way. JRRT explicitly stated differences between the naming. If there were no differences he would've kept using the same word to refer to all Greenskins and derivatives like he did at the beginning.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 11:26:45 am by Mictlantecuhtli »
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Quartz_Mace

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #313 on: October 15, 2014, 03:35:39 pm »

I'm not saying that all the ideas are completely original, nor do I believe that this all fits perfectly into lore. Obviously, DF has done WAY MORE random generation than this came ever could, and yes, they probably stole from mainstream games. As far as the lore, I don't think Sauron's magic could bind a dead Elf lord and a dying Gondorian's souls together, but he is of the Maiar and was trained by Morgoth, a Vala. For those who have not read the Silmarillion, he's basically a Demi-God who learned from a God. I will say that I love seeing this incorporated into the otherwise static and boring worlds of mainstream gaming. Also, if I may prophesize, Talion will likely end up becoming a Ring-Wraith eventually. If his plan is to build his way to the top and kill Sauron, he'll need a Ring of Power to accomplish that and one of those could corrupt him. To get one, it'd probably be impossible to forge it, unless he's bound to the Elf Lord I think he might be, Celebrimbor (the Elf who forged the Rings), so he'd probably have to take out a current Ring-Wraith. If he could forge his own, he's likely be free of Sauron, but who knows what would happen then. If I'm wrong, I haven't played the game yet so please inform me if that's not how it ends.
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Karkov

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Re: Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor
« Reply #314 on: October 15, 2014, 03:38:22 pm »

Yeah, he's bound to Celebrimbor.  That shows up pretty quickly and was announced before the game was even released.  The end of the game pretty much states that he's going to go create a new ring.
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