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[Cthulhu]

That also gets into the thing a lot of people into working political critique into artforms seem to miss is that politically critiquing art isn't about finding things like this in a book and spanking it and saying it's a bad book and you shouldn't read it.

I read somewhere they took a lot of cues for uruk behavior in the game from humans in extreme situations like World War 1.  They've got a society where you acquire the resources you need (manflesh, grog, slaves, soldiers, etc.) either by being strong enough to take and keep them or by kowtowing to someone else who is those things.  It's a society that can exist and has in real life. 

It's obviously more complex than the non-uruk characters are giving it credit and it's as much based in the extreme circumstances of where they live and who they work for as in any inherent nastiness coming from their breeding.

But that doesn't immediately translate to "boo hoo it's a white male power fantasy about enslaving people of color bad monolith" unless you're writing a Freshman critical theory paper or you want to write an article that'll get lots of pageviews.

Not everything needs to be political and even when something is political it doesn't always have to be taken in the same direction.  I don't think anyone would seriously say that Talion and Celebrimbor are 100% good guys.  THey, like the uruks, are in an extreme situation and behaving in extreme ways.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

I have to wonder, if Sauron was successful in conquering Middle-Earth, that would mean that the Uruks wouldn't be in an extreme situation.  So, if they were behaving that way due to their extreme situation, would they continue to behave the same, or differently?

[dennislp3]

Making it a race issue is ridiculous in my opinion...but I don't want to get into that or it will be a long winded reply lol

As for if Sauron won...I would think they might start to take on a more civilized tone...but that would be a long, slow, and mostly unlikely process

[kaian-a-coel]

I have to wonder, if Sauron was successful in conquering Middle-Earth, that would mean that the Uruks wouldn't be in an extreme situation.  So, if they were behaving that way due to their extreme situation, would they continue to behave the same, or differently?

Knowing Sauron, he would keep the situation extreme as (if) the behaviour of orcs in this situation suits him.

[Cthulhu]

I have to wonder, if Sauron was successful in conquering Middle-Earth, that would mean that the Uruks wouldn't be in an extreme situation.  So, if they were behaving that way due to their extreme situation, would they continue to behave the same, or differently?

Sauron would've eventually despoiled all of Middle Earth the way he despoiled Mordor.  The only thing about the situation that would change is the scope.

Extreme situations-wise that's what I read, I don't know how much of it they utilized.  Obviously Uruks aren't just normal friendly dudes pushed to do terrible things but at the same time it's obvious their society is more complex than a faceless mass of dumb evil brutes.

[monkey]

Sauron would've eventually despoiled all of Middle Earth the way he despoiled Mordor. 

Lies, nothing but lies. Tolkien was a liar.
For the true story of Middle-Earth, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer 

[Sordid]

Yeah, Shadow of Mordor's story is actually really damn dark and IMO it's clearly a case of evil versus evil.

Spoiler: Like, really. Spoilers. (click to show/hide)

Ever notice how many times Celebrimbor echoes some of Tolkien's own villains? He wants to use the Enemy's own power against him, like Boromir. He tells you that you need an army of orcs to fight in Mordor, like Saruman. And how do you get said army? You enslave them, you bend them to your will, much like Sauron himself bends his ringwraiths and other servants to his will. Celebrimbor calls himself the Silver Hand, much like Saruman is the White Hand. Even the branding of the uruks is similar. Remember how Galadriel says that yeah, she could use the Ring to defeat Sauron, but that that would be a bad idea because in doing so she would simply be replacing one tyrant with another? Well Celebrimbor clearly had a different opinion on that, since that's exactly what he tried to do. He even echoes her "all shall love me and despair" with his own "all shall fear me and rejoice". This game's Celebrimbor is basically a mash-up of Tolkien's own villains.

In terms of his importance to the story, Talion is little more than a vessel for the elf wraith. Firstly, Celebrimbor feeds him lies throughout the whole game. This whole "amnesiac elf wraith" schtick? Yeah, it's bullshit. We're told late in the game that Talion is cursed because Celebrimbor chose him as his vessel and could leave him at any time if he wanted. Moreover, Celebrimbor uses his "Nan iChir Gelair" line when interrogating uruks right from the start, and as you learn towards the end of the game that line means "I am the Bright Lord (of Mordor)", a title he adopted when he claimed The One Ring and led an army of orcs of his own against Sauron and his forces. He knows perfectly well who he is and what he's doing right from square one. He might even be mind-controlling Talion to an extent. We know that being mind-controlled by Celebrimbor turns the uruks' eyes light blue, right? Well guess what.

Shadow of Mordor is basically the fantasy equivalent of Spec Ops: The Line. You think you're playing a hero but you're actually not. Only this game isn't nearly as ham-fisted about the whole thing and doesn't beat you over the head with its message.

All of this of course goes right over the heads of the vast majority of people who play the game. "We're a generic fantasy hero killing generic fantasy orcs, yay!"

Yeah agreed.  Even Talion often expresses doubt about what they're doing, and the elf coldly reassures him that the ends justify the means.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't think Celebrimbor lied about most things.  He knew he could release Talion, at least eventually, and lied by omission about that.  But I think he really didn't remember his past at first, since his obsession with finding memory fragments doesn't make sense otherwise.

At the end Celebrimbor suggests that the fight is beyond them now, and it's Talion who demands that they stop Sauron.  *That* seems off.  Talion has his vengeance, it's Celebrimbor who has a personal vendetta against Sauron.  So the elf may have been bluffing there, making sure Talion is personally dedicated to destroying Sauron.  Particularly given the "cliffhanger", it feels like something the elf planned.

I assume he's telling the truth about the human afterlife being a mystery, too, but I don't know the lore well enough.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't think Celebrimbor was looking for the elven artifacts in order to get the memory fragments but rather to get the artifacts themselves. Two of them are the very hammer and chisel Sauron gifted him and he then used to make the rings, so if his plan was to make a new Ring, he'd need those. Well, now he has them.

Yes, you're right that nobody knows what happens to men when they die in Tolkien's world. Talion's family clearly believes there's some kind of afterlife in which they'll be together, though, if his wife's last words are any indication. But your mention of afterlife made me do a quick search and I found this: http://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/post/43010877100/the-elvish-afterlife

However, there are some elves who are never reborn. Some don’t wish to be, others aren’t allowed to (because of evil acts they committed.) Others still refuse Mandos’s summons when they die, and wander the world as bodiless spirits. Some of these spirits are evil themselves, and may try to steal bodies to be reborn into. Therefore it is extremely unwise (not to mention evil) to try and contact these spirits. Necromancy, the communication with dead spirits, was a specialty of Sauron’s.

That literally sent a chill down my spine. Doesn't that just describe this game's Celebrimbor in a nutshell? Now after reading that I definitely think Celebrimbor is mind-controlling Talion, gradually eroding away his will in order to eventually take over his body. Maybe that's what that "we're done here, time to go" thing was about. To see if Celebrimbor's hold on Talion was strong enough to bend his will to his cause. Throughout the game the elf manipulates Talion into severing any ties or commitments he might have to anyone else. When a dwarf offers him friendship and a woman offers him love, the elf harshly reprimands him and makes him turn both of them away. Even though Celebrimbor has his way, Talion's will contests with Celebrimbor's. At the end of the game comes the ultimate test, "it's time to die and be with your family". Talion would want that more than anything, but he says no, he wants to destroy Sauron. He wants what Celebrimbor wants. His will has been eroded and Celebrimbor's has taken over.

[Rakonas]

I have to wonder, if Sauron was successful in conquering Middle-Earth, that would mean that the Uruks wouldn't be in an extreme situation.  So, if they were behaving that way due to their extreme situation, would they continue to behave the same, or differently?

Orcs are naturally evil in Arda. They're twisted forms of actual beings to suit Morgoth's desire for power. Conquering all of Middle Earth would not change their nature and their very existence is an affront to the Valar.

In regards to the Orcs/Uruk debate: These are not Uruk-hai like Saruman's at all. The game uses Uruk to refer to literally every orc, and it's ridiculous to believe that every orc in Mordor at this time was an Uruk-Hai. There's even that one character you first raise to warchief who is a scrawny little goblin. There's nothing wrong with using Orc instead of Uruk, the game developers mostly did it for style/uniqueness, every other game involves killing orcs but Uruks are uniquely tolkien.

[Rolan7]

Snip

Ooh, good finds.

[marples]

In regards to the Orcs/Uruk debate: These are not Uruk-hai like Saruman's at all. The game uses Uruk to refer to literally every orc, and it's ridiculous to believe that every orc in Mordor at this time was an Uruk-Hai. There's even that one character you first raise to warchief who is a scrawny little goblin. There's nothing wrong with using Orc instead of Uruk, the game developers mostly did it for style/uniqueness, every other game involves killing orcs but Uruks are uniquely tolkien.

I agree on some points, but whilst all Uruk are orcs, not all Orcs are Uruk. Uruk is just a contraction made by Men for Uruk-Hai.
The Uruk-Hai were originally created by Sauron not Saruman (but it is likely the method for creation was passed along). The Uruk-Hai were the ones responsible for sacking Osgiliath and the only members of the orc race that operate effectively in daylight. It's doubtful that the majority of the Host of Mordor were Uruk, certainly not the amount seen in the game. Certain models used in the game are definitely just common orcs (Ratbag for instance) but there are a few that fit the description of Uruk. It may have been a work around for the game creators to have large numbers of Orcs working during the day with no sign of discomfort.

What also puzzled me was the Rancor beast like Gruag. Surely these should have been rogue Olog-Hai.

[Digital Hellhound]

Sauron is stated to be cross-breeding Olog-hai trolls with the graugs and trolls-who-turn-to-stone. The Orcs also have to be Uruk - regular Orcs can't stand sunlight, and Mordor is still sunny at this time. I was personally sure the smaller, scrawnier Uruks had to be regular Orcs, but apparently not.

[Tack]

People are still going on about this?

Here's the rub, guys- Original Tolkien doesn't apply here. It's using warped canon.
Look at my logics- it makes the whole thing kinda simple.

1. Original Tolkien- only Orcs and Fighting Uruk-Hai. Goblin, hobgoblin and all etcetera is just tossed in as synonyms.
2. Tolkien Rewrites- heaps of stuff changes- including the classifications of misty mountain orcs, goblins, gundabad and mordor orcs.
2. Movie Era- The literalness of the movies solidifies some lore which was ambiguous. Uruk-Hai become twisted men, just as Orcs are twisted elves. Goblins become a solid race of their own.
3. Games- probably the most lore-bending- particularly in the BFME and BFME2 franchise, as unit slots need to be filled. Orcs are now divided by region and species along with trolls- goblins are their own specific race of sub-humanoids. "Uruk" becomes the term for larger, smarter Orks out of Mordor- much like Orc Alphas. They start as Orc leaders and soon start existing in their own tribes. LOTRO and TA: Total War jump right on this.

Ergo- the "Uruks" in SoM are NOT Uruk-Hai.

Here's other proof.
Chronologically it's impossible. Saruman was the first to successfully create Uruk-Hai, and he did it during the time directly preceding lord of the rings- as he had to kidnap people from the nearby lands. Judging by the fact that it is immediately after the re-emergence of Sauron, and gollum is still in Mordor, we know this is far before even the time of Bilbo.
In game canon it's confirmed- During the game Celebrimbor mentions that the Uruk are twisted versions of "his kind"- ergo, elves, not men.
Plus it's anatomically unlikely. Uruks are said to stand at or just below the height of men whilst orcs are stunted and relatively tiny. The only creature in the entire area who is at least a head shorter is Ratbag, and it's pretty clear he's a runt.

So, tl;dr- Tolkien original is ignored by the majority of Tolkien-world writers now, and SoM has the Uruks as the movie/games era Uruk- which is a bigger smarter breed of Orc.
They are NOT Uruk-Hai.


Again- disclaimer- this is about the Game's interpretation. Obviously fans will never agree- but the GAME has them as very cut-and-dried.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

... Uruk-hai are the same thing as Uruks. And yes, they did start in the second age in Mordor first. You're referring specifically to Isengards 'fighting uruk-hai', which in fact didn't exist until the third age. Mordor's Black-Uruks [Uruk is just a colloquialism] were there long before Isengard's. Shadow of Mordor takes place at the beginning of Sauron's domination of Mordor, where it's documented that this is the first appearance of Sauron's "Uruks" in other LOTR lore.

Your point #1 is also completely wrong, by the way. JRRT explicitly stated differences between the naming. If there were no differences he would've kept using the same word to refer to all Greenskins and derivatives like he did at the beginning.

[Quartz_Mace]

I'm not saying that all the ideas are completely original, nor do I believe that this all fits perfectly into lore. Obviously, DF has done WAY MORE random generation than this came ever could, and yes, they probably stole from mainstream games. As far as the lore, I don't think Sauron's magic could bind a dead Elf lord and a dying Gondorian's souls together, but he is of the Maiar and was trained by Morgoth, a Vala. For those who have not read the Silmarillion, he's basically a Demi-God who learned from a God. I will say that I love seeing this incorporated into the otherwise static and boring worlds of mainstream gaming. Also, if I may prophesize, Talion will likely end up becoming a Ring-Wraith eventually. If his plan is to build his way to the top and kill Sauron, he'll need a Ring of Power to accomplish that and one of those could corrupt him. To get one, it'd probably be impossible to forge it, unless he's bound to the Elf Lord I think he might be, Celebrimbor (the Elf who forged the Rings), so he'd probably have to take out a current Ring-Wraith. If he could forge his own, he's likely be free of Sauron, but who knows what would happen then. If I'm wrong, I haven't played the game yet so please inform me if that's not how it ends.

[Karkov]

Yeah, he's bound to Celebrimbor.  That shows up pretty quickly and was announced before the game was even released.  The end of the game pretty much states that he's going to go create a new ring.