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[Tiruin]

So it seems that attempts at a multi-vote wind up as a no-lynch vote. I'll keep that in mind for if any future vote shenanigans crop up.

Unvote for now.

I guess Web's taking it..taking everything as an in-class context.
"You try voting multiple people--how does that make sense?! You're indecisive."
...
Therefore there is 'no lynch'.

Leafsnail

I still don't see how any of this remotely constitutes a case against me.  Your first point seems to be "You called NQT scum, but I think NQT is town".  Ok, why do you think NQT is town (in spite of the fact that his claim makes absolutely no sense)?  Why does NQT being town make me scum?

Let's start off with how you started a case against NQT. You firstly assumed the Bellsounder Mafia-applying its kind of logic onto him.

How can he defend against that?

Next, I repeatedly state that I believe you are scummier due to context compared to NQT-I AM NOT SURE NQT IS TOWN, given my earlier notes on him! I fairly believe that you've missed that, and instead are relying on repetition to get the point across? Or possibly, subvert what I'm trying to say to put malice into it?

It is not that, but that i have detected malice in your intent instead. I will get to this later.

Your "scum can nightkill" point is incredibly weak.  Even non-bastard games can have useless roles (eg, the presence of a Mafia Ninja does not guarantee that the town has a tracker), and even if we assume "roles have to be useful" it doesn't follow that evil people can kill or that NQT cannot convert people.  The protection could protect someone from an advanced doppelganger attack, for instance.  But even if we accept that scum can nightkill I don't see how that changes anything.

I love how 'useless' my portable power is. That's a pretty nice deflection of a power that exists. This more than not edges me towards you being scum--other than question the point, you attack it without the essence or detail of curiosity.

I'll redirect your 'weak' point in this. Orange part. It is more than not, believable and your attempt to shut it down? Painted as scum.
> We're freed from class everyday. Every "day" is when we are at class. I believe we may be attacked by said element when we are not at class. Remember how Toony's Love Mafia played out? The one where you won as a third-party? Relate that example.

But even if we accept that scum can nightkill I don't see how that changes anything.

"Even if" is a real certainty. So let's say scum can't nightkill--why the heck do you think team 'Evil' is supposed to have that in the first place? Why not give note of it and refute my case there and then? "Incredibly weak" my third toe. The counterpoint you offer is just base speculation--it tried to outguess the damn setup, even! It does not directly attack my case, is what I'm saying.

I do not understand your last point at all.  How do you know there's a "direct game mechanic to these 'moral abstract concepts' of Evil and such", and how does that contradict what I've said?  The second part of that sentence seems to just be echoing what I've claimed so I don't see what that has to do with anything.

*Tiruin points to relevance.

Spoiler: Page 5; Reply #60, wherein the only weird thing is this was never in the OP but whatever--bastardry by 'announced timing' is stoopid and makes for a bad mod (click to show/hide)

Aaaaand, your gender and stuff are in your roles. If you're not told you're Evil, you're not Evil. Have fun. Ask away, foolish fools. I'm sure I forgot to explain something.

Detail to me the importance of this orange point here. Maybe you'll understand my point--I also want to understand yours. This schism of aggression may be caused because wow, super-bastard (instead of semi-bastard) game we're having wherein there is lacking scum. How great is that?

The fun thing is EVERYONE ELSE IS BEING DAMN LAZY. Recent posts consist of team evil, and lacking Team everyoneelse. NQT speaks in brevity. Heck, I'm already willing to give this up because LACKING PARTICIPATION.

Anyway, rant aside.

Point: A clear explanation of what you're accusing me of, and why it makes me scum or a better lynch candidate than NQT
Explanation: The reasoning and evidence that leads up to the accusation you make in the Point section

*Grumble grumble. :I*

Spoiler: Note 1 (click to show/hide)

Point: There is Evil, and there is Not Evil. It is a mechanic.
Explanation: It matters to the context of Mafia. There are at least two contending sides. Best case: It matters to the game and this type of thinking is debatable.
Problem: Lynch an Evil person, let's check what's up.
Counter-Point: I am confused, partly, by this method--why would "scum" [if Evil, therefore scum] all-claim? There's the matter of the Innocent Child*, which will be addressed later.

Spoiler: Note 2 (click to show/hide)

Point: Bastard game. I can sincerely doubt NQT being an Innocent Child as a bastard mechanic.
Explanation: His actions, more than my speculation-at-hand, are scummy. Promises?
Counter-Point: It makes sense however, that if the notion of his...play is discarded (this is my viewpoint NQT. Don't go ballistic on me), then the only scummy point left is that he mentioned 'hey doods, don't lynch my and info comes tomorrow, kay'? Wherein I don't really see anything wrong with letting him live another day.
> If Cult--he's the Cult Leader. We kill him, he can't do anymorestuffs.
> If Parasite (think GlyphGryph's Imperial-Rebel game. Machinator-Parasite) - Then we'd be pretty sure of what happened as there are clues in flavor.
> If scum--thrice damn this cheap play, is all I can say. But that is very doubtful by the essence of it: It would be a fairly bastard (which is more than even a semi-bastard, and webadict is a good judge of character) game to have this 'Innocent Child' be a total backstabber here.
> We have contenders against him-their cases (discarding those obv-bandwagoners [yeah guys. I am also disappointed in you for not trying.) are also of suspect to make sense for a NQT lynch. I myself have my own case to doubt him given the bastard-prospect of this game, but it doesn't hold to good logic.

Spoiler: Note 3 (click to show/hide)

Point: Part of your example--which is lacking in mention as you see NQT now, is that you also blame the mods as reason to vote him. This is a scumpoint.

Explanation: If this is a scum ploy-it's cheap. If it isn't then that ONE mechanic we're all seeing and basing most things on (See: Point 1) is where webadict lied--though personally? It'd be better if he played it like Vector. "I've lied to you once or even twice thus far."

Anyway. Your whole case on NQT are counter-arguments on him, and ever since I've advocated a non-lynch to him, you've gone hostile to me too. "Where is the questioning Leafsnail I've known and loved" holds here-you don't diplomatically assess the situation. You state in exacts of 'Town' and 'Scum'. Continued below, too.

It's like you're snipping between the lines on information that you can say-but don't want to say. Lacking wording when there's a 'feeling' that there'd be more.

Point 4 is in a rant below.

However, for posterity-if NQT is scum (third-party or whatever), then I am fully justified in saying he's playing poorly. He gives little much amounting to NOTHING in his defense, if we discard the promise of 'survival until tomorrow' and most importantly: "this seems bad to talk about in public because [Team Evil] the scumteam are at an advantage" as a reason--and I will not accept that emotional rant he mentioned earlier as an alibi, now. I know how that feels-I've gone through that more than anyone here-and darn well does it suck in knowing he's not posting anything as of recent note.

And is active. (Or as far active as checking his account is).

Counter point to that?: Team Evil has no comment--NOR is Leafsnail or anyone else advocating that WHAT NQT SAYS IS A GOOD IDEA. In bastard games, scum are almost always at an advantage given the breach in information--or at least have a greater advantage than Town in knowing what is going on!

NQT: To probably please your ego; we're all idiots. Happy? Your attitude, however, does not conform to a true president (I can state the gap in how you played before as to how you're doing now [but if its RL, you don't mention it] wherein you don't detail, at all, in recent times what your thoughts are).
Do you understand that withholding information bakes you out as a nice target for scum?


PS: _{Today seems to be my grumpy day so...no malice intended. :X Just preeeeetty grrr at myself because of scheduled stuff and me breaking down under sadness and sadness and not doing anything because apathy argh. I'm not even inclined towards apathy. T_T}

[Tiruin]

...
And via that re-read, thanks Leafsnail.


I totally missed this stroke of ingenuity.

However my thoughts are as follows--the only way we DO know its the end of the world (sans my action of looking out the window and OMG METEOR IN SKY), is by OUT OF CHARACTER PLAY (which is directly NOT what the mods have been playing as).

In character? Mr. Badict is in his safety bunker (as far as memory serves me) and at least Dr. Nerjin will die with us today. :I
Anyway.

My thoughts do not think that today is the last day in our world. If such summoners can do hilarious fun and cause it to be DAY END, DAY ONE, WOOP-DEE-DOO, then I seriously doubt this is a 'semi-bastard' game.

Because the only situation I see in reversing this is:
> Lynch Cado. NQT declares him to not come to class (+roleflips) but to help in getting that meteor or whatever out.

Which would only be done if Cado claimed truthfully, as a generality. Now if all Meteor summoners have benevolent agendas, they'd all claim.

Oh right.

@Leafsnail/Everyone
Point 5: RangerCado doesn't look like a good lynch today, if at all-unless we've got better information.
Explanation: He claimed. Truthfully. And unless there's any ability that presides against that notion (like swapping people?), then this clears him as a confidant...or however you term 'helpful guilty person who we can talk to'.

I don't say believe everything he says though-caution is the best thing here.

Point 6: Not all flavor is relevant and flavor can be a real good alibi.
Explanation: If we go by all webadict/Nerjin's notes--it is right to say these things:
  - We can't get that darn book mentioned in the OP due to 'you need a hallpass to get out since Mr. Badict isn't here'
  - Hilarious substitute teachers who are less competent than reality anybodies! (No offense Nerjin, I liked your flavor! )
  - Mr. Badict is actually a coward and that single note of his 'safe location' (which i inferred as a safe bunker in the above post) is really only known by inferring and assuming.
  - 90% of what we've concluded today is from inferring and asking the mods. There must be a simpler solution rather than doing this.
     =Counter-point: Why does the Meteor even matter at all?! It's not like we're student heroes or whatever. Best case scenario is it dissipating in the atmosphere and every adult is useless (contrast 'every adult is USELESS' to 'every teenager is evil'--I know I ain't evil, nor ever was evil)


However we know one thing: Whoever made MOWE into a human sandwich is evil. :I

[notquitethere]

Wolf

Am I the only one who finds this ridiculous?  NQT is claiming that he knows something that will ruin the "town" today, but tomorrow it will be fine, even if the situation does not change.  Care to explain how this is even possible, NQT?

No. It'll make sense tomorrow if I'm still alive to tell you. You'll all be kicking yourself.


Ranger

Is being hypocritical as you lead a campaign to lynch me. What the heck! ...I'm guessing your being defensive about this because you have a night action, or YOUR one of the other summoners.

No one needs to be lynched for it to be safe to tell you guys tomorrow, but it'll be safer overall the more Evil players we eliminate. Sorry champ!


Darkstar

What don't we get? How is "don't lynch me OR ELSE" not self-preservation, and how does knowing something important that no one else does make you town? Also, you are not actually answering questions; instead, you just tell people that you can't tell them anything.

Do you understand the concept of not giving away useful information to your enemies? Of course you want me to claim because I have declared myself in opposition to you and your interests. I feel no compulsion to worsen my chances at winning this game just to prematurely satisfy your desire for answers.

I had a post with multiple questions to you that I still want answered (this one: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=135628.msg4967601#msg4967601). There is simply not a good enough reason to believe you when you give zero evidence or details for your claim.

See below, but I feel I've said as much as I can. I feel assured that if I am voted out today then I'll have said as much as was safe to say without imperilling my allies.

There's a lot here that bugs me. Why can't you explain? What can you tell us about it? There are most likely things that you can tell us that will convince us, but you don't. I'm guessing that something in your role description involves either surviving and being lynched day 2 or later or an ability that will help you starting day 2. Could you please explain, and also explain why it was necessary to bring attention to that fact that you needed to live? It's simply suspicious to say that under no conditions must you be lynched today while you are "confirmed" Not Evil anyway.

I think it would be a very bad idea to lynch me today as I'm uncertain what will happen due to an unclear mechanic that will only become clear tomorrow. I've tried asking Wuba and Nerjin multiple times but they're as useful as a chocolate kettle. That's as much as I'll say. I'm not answering your questions until Day 2 and then I'll answer all your questions.

The most likely one of the above scenarios is that you are a jester. You'll probably say something like "Well, it didn't happen". You have also said that lynching you in the future is fine, but just not today. Possibly, you are a (to borrow the term) a "muggle" that is depressed because you are with wizards who can do things you can't. You've already said that you have no other abilities.

The next most likely thing is that there is actually something going on (I'll get to that later with some questions).

The least likely thing is an ability that only works starting day 2. This is unlikely, since you're been claiming otherwise, unless you are a meteor summoner (which doesn't seem likely).

I'm definitely not a jester or a depressed muggle or a meteor summoner.

Questions about the "very bad thing" (20 questions time!):
Why do you not care about being lynched after tonight? Will it be revealed to the town tomorrow?

I'll no longer be as useful to the fortunes of town after today. I'll reveal it tomorrow if I'm alive, but if I'm dead I'm not sure whether or not Wuba or Nerjin will reveal it.

Would the scum possibly know this already but not realize that you know it?

Quite possibly, but perhaps not.


My Badict

I would say to review the First Battle of Terra, but you probably won't have time to take the quiz at the end of the week.

Uh... who won the First Battle of Terra?


Tiruin

NQT: Why can't you address us instead of talking solely to Leafsnail?

It's not like we exist here!

I'm not sure where you're getting this impression from. I've said what I want to say. It's up to town to decide whether they'd like to play in their best interests or not.

Do you understand that withholding information bakes you out as a nice target for scum?[/b]

So the story's like this Tiruin: I notice about midway through the game the significance of something in my PM. I try to get Wuba and Nerjin to clarify but they're useless. I'm suddenly worried about what will happen if I'm killed. Best case, it'll actually be in the interests of town, worst case it'll be resolutely not in the interests of town. I know that if I explain the full details then scum will change their strategy accordingly and ensure that the worst scenario comes to pass, so I can't say anything. I only hope that if I die, then the secrets that will help scum will die with me rather than aiding them. I have no way to know until the end comes and I cannot risk speaking to much and giving succour to my foes.

Everyone
Point 5: RangerCado doesn't look like a good lynch today, if at all-unless we've got better information.
Explanation: He claimed. Truthfully. And unless there's any ability that presides against that notion (like swapping people?), then this clears him as a confidant...or however you term 'helpful guilty person who we can talk to'.

Sorry Tiruin, I'd consider voting Leafsnail or Darkstar instead but I'm not going to risk my own life to do so when so much may hang in the balance.


Walnuts, are you going to grace us with a vote before the day ends?

[Tiruin]

Tiruin

NQT: Why can't you address us instead of talking solely to Leafsnail?

It's not like we exist here!

I'm not sure where you're getting this impression from. I've said what I want to say. It's up to town to decide whether they'd like to play in their best interests or not.

"Ms. Class President, with all due respect--that is my point. In recent note, team Evil (...or basically those who've done the most outspoken 'summary' against you..who are all classified as 'Evil') have leveled scathing accusations against you..with generalizations.

"Yes, you have that note and the right to put your foot down--but I don't see why you can't interject in your own defense when and until the day ends! It makes me feel...jaded in my belief in you (meaning: I am faltering in believing that your lynch isn't the best priority of the first day due to the Bastard standard--third-party, you be?)"

So the story's like this Tiruin: I notice about midway through the game the significance of something in my PM. I try to get Wuba and Nerjin to clarify but they're useless. I'm suddenly worried about what will happen if I'm killed. Best case, it'll actually be in the interests of town, worst case it'll be resolutely not in the interests of town. I know that if I explain the full details then scum will change their strategy accordingly and ensure that the worst scenario comes to pass, so I can't say anything. I only hope that if I die, then the secrets that will help scum will die with me rather than aiding them. I have no way to know until the end comes and I cannot risk speaking to much and giving succour to my foes.

"...I guessed as much. I mean-I got your case earlier, but am pretty unsure how to present it without giving full view of the gap between where you see it, and stand, and where we see it and stand-with all the cluttery variables in between. People are gunning for you...for vague and mysterious reasons, and I am unsure what has happened to the good name of logic here.

"In other words, my next investigative project is: Mental Difficulties Induced By Heavenly Bodies. With references in astronomy, of course. ...What? You thought I was doing a Psycho-socio experiment?"

On another note, I like how you worded that. Pretty literary.
Though I still do feel the imperative is you stand up and fight because it pretty much feels to me that the scum wincon is kicking your face bucket in. :I

I'll no longer be as useful to the fortunes of town after today. I'll reveal it tomorrow if I'm alive, but if I'm dead I'm not sure whether or not Wuba or Nerjin will reveal it.

Tiruin spasms.
I am going to punch either of you mods if this bastard thing is a scripted event. T'aint fun. Unless you're sadistic. :I
Rawr!

No. It'll make sense tomorrow if I'm still alive to tell you. You'll all be kicking yourself.

And I will punch you if this is a scum-ploy you're doing! Because it's cheap and omgNQTreally?!
Y'all aren't fun if you do this thing. :I
Rawr!

My Badict

I would say to review the First Battle of Terra, but you probably won't have time to take the quiz at the end of the week.

Uh... who won the First Battle of Terra?

Please don't tell me we're delving into Warhammer 40K...
^{Eldar FTW. >:I}

Everyone
Point 5: RangerCado doesn't look like a good lynch today, if at all-unless we've got better information.
Explanation: He claimed. Truthfully. And unless there's any ability that presides against that notion (like swapping people?), then this clears him as a confidant...or however you term 'helpful guilty person who we can talk to'.

Sorry Tiruin, I'd consider voting Leafsnail or Darkstar instead but I'm not going to risk my own life to do so when so much may hang in the balance.

WELL, How's about this. Since we're obviously MAYBE NOT lynching Cado's face off the classroom and assumed Earth, given you and Leafsnail being in a run-I ask you to make a conditional extension to that mandate you did to Cado before--to both yourself and Leafsnail!
So at least we'll answer one thing for sure...That Flavor-note.

The most likely one of the above scenarios is that you are a jester. You'll probably say something like "Well, it didn't happen". You have also said that lynching you in the future is fine, but just not today. Possibly, you are a (to borrow the term) a "muggle" that is depressed because you are with wizards who can do things you can't. You've already said that you have no other abilities.

The next most likely thing is that there is actually something going on (I'll get to that later with some questions).

The least likely thing is an ability that only works starting day 2. This is unlikely, since you're been claiming otherwise, unless you are a meteor summoner (which doesn't seem likely).

I'm definitely not a jester or a depressed muggle or a meteor summoner.

Well I'm secretly nyancat. Hear me rawr with the power of a thousand kittens!
nyan~

...
Ohgodspleasedon'ttellmewe'redoingHarryPotter.

[notquitethere]

Tiruin

(meaning: I am faltering in believing that your lynch isn't the best priority of the first day due to the Bastard standard--third-party, you be?)"

I've tried to explain as clearly as possible why I can't say any more. If you want to let me get lynched today, go ahead, but don't say I didn't warn you.

WELL, How's about this. Since we're obviously MAYBE NOT lynching Cado's face off the classroom and assumed Earth, given you and Leafsnail being in a run-I ask you to make a conditional extension to that mandate you did to Cado before--to both yourself and Leafsnail!
So at least we'll answer one thing for sure...That Flavor-note.

I won't narrate my own mislynch, but I will say, If Leafsnail is voted by the class, we will give him a slice of cake and a pat on the back after his role and alignment is revealed, but then he can come back and join the class tomorrow.

[Tiruin]

Tiruin

(meaning: I am faltering in believing that your lynch isn't the best priority of the first day due to the Bastard standard--third-party, you be?)"

I've tried to explain as clearly as possible why I can't say any more. If you want to let me get lynched today, go ahead, but don't say I didn't warn you.

...You think I want to lynch you?

[notquitethere]

...You think I want to lynch you?

I didn't think so, but then you did say: "I am faltering in believing that your lynch isn't the best priority of the first day due to the Bastard standard--third-party, you be", which (though tricky to decipher), makes me think you'd not be too upset about letting the others lynch me. You want to keep Ranger around because of a suspected Love wincon, right?

[Tiruin]

Wait, Counterpoint; NQT. You say, and I believe you believe us to guess-that your loss or gain is at the mercy of a night action/ability, right?

Because if you did what you feared--scum have to be real careful about public opinion. We know there are 3 out there. We have around 9 others not including you in this 13 player game.

"You can't fool all of the people all of the time." seems like the appropriate proverb here.

PPE Oh hi! 

[notquitethere]

Well, if I'm murdered in the night or somesuch, then you won't have to look too far to work out who did it, sure.

[Tiruin]

...>_> Now you're just guilt-tripping my choice of picking Mr. Cheddar.

But that still doesn't account to why you can't tell it out loud. Is it a very easily misinterpreted idea that the time-until-day-end does not factor into us comprehending what value it is, or does it have a direct influence on the bastardry?

[notquitethere]

I find it incredible that you (and most other players) can't seem to fathom that there could be information that scum could act upon. This is to do with the game mechanics (what little we know of them) but isn't to do with the bastardry per se.

[Toaster]

NQT:

I think it would be a very bad idea to lynch me today as I'm uncertain what will happen due to an unclear mechanic that will only become clear tomorrow.

Isn't this a direct contradiction to you saying your confirmation was your only ability?

[notquitethere]

Isn't this a direct contradiction to you saying your confirmation was your only ability?

No. Not in any way. It'll be clear tomorrow.

[Toaster]

Okay, so you only have one ability.  Therefore by elimination, what you have is information, making you informed.  You're the only one who has this, so you're the minority.


Do you see the problem with this?

[4maskwolf]

Tiruin: have you not seen our posts speculating this is some weird magical hybrid world, seemingly with some Harry. Potter characters. I'm PFP, but a while back I linked to a post where the mod mentions Hermione.