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Author Topic: Smster W/ Love - Game Over  (Read 225701 times)

HissinhWalnuts

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - Day 1 - Class Selection
« Reply #345 on: January 26, 2014, 04:17:04 pm »

My character sheet shows me as a jerk but doesn't say ' You are evil ' so I think I'm town.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - Day 1 - Class Selection
« Reply #346 on: January 26, 2014, 05:17:22 pm »

webadict: Is there anything we can do to prevent the apocalypse?

I left this post up for a long time so it may lack responses to more recent stuff.

Erm... This is bastard mod, the last time I checked. What's your evidence that everything he is ambiguous on means he's hiding something important.
Because "using ambiguities to hide a twist" is pretty much the definition of any mystery/puzzle/bastard mod.

Ok, I know pretty much nothing of bastard games, so I'm going to put that bit aside for now as this seems to be overcomplicating things way too much for me right now.
Read the twists behind Bellsounder and M E I N K A M P F.  If the town played either of those games with the mindset you have right now then they couldn't have possibly won, and I believe you are dooming yourself to the same fate by ignoring the clear puzzle behind a bastard game. 

Even if you don't agree with my conclusion that NQT is scum, you should be able to agree with my subconclusion that he isn't confirmed town.

Same applies for the original KWN, barring a piece of random luck.

Leafsnail:
Why is it that you think we should kill NQT, when they are confirmed not-evil? Why would this be your first plan, rather than waiting for a day or so to see how things fold out?
Because there's absolutely nothing in the OP, the game start flavour or webadict's answers to our questions to suggest that "not-evil" = "a person we don't want to lynch", but webadict is clearly trying to play on that natural assumption by calling NQT "not-evil".  In fact, I will turn the question around: why do you think NQT is confirmed as not scum in spite of the fact that webadict has told us nothing of the sort?

It's my first plan because I have now acquired a reputation for solving bastard games, so if the scum has a kill they will probably murder me night one to shut me up.  Plus, the sooner I lay out my case the more time I have to argue for it.

For now, Leafsnail, your theory is completely substanceless: you think you have a reason to believe that I'm not a confirmed non-meteor-summoner, but that doesn't in any way prove that I am a meteor summoner.
It strongly suggests you are scum if the moderator is obviously trying to trick us into thinking you're confirmed.  The fact that you're the only person who seems to know their alignment is also highly questionable: even if you're Good, none of the rest of us know that we're good.  That is, we could all be Neutral (we just want to stop the apocalypse) and you could be a Good Guy who wants to rid the world of all its sin and start anew.

I don't have direct proof, of course, but I think the puzzle behind the game strongly suggests that you are scum and the onus is on you to provide a real counterargument.

Killing everyone with a meteorite is evil. I am confirmed good and not evil.
This contradicts your previous paragraph.  Anyway, I still have my two answers to this: firstly, that meteor launching needn't be evil (perhaps this is like NGE or something where the world will be reborn anew afterwards - purging the wicked could be A Good Cause), and secondly that we don't know if we're actually supposed to be lynching the meteor summoners.  Heck, in the game start post webadict suggested that would be a bad idea.

Further, getting town to vote out the only confirmed good player is a reasonable scum strategy.
I love that this is your own reasoning for voting me after having accused me of making a weak argument.  "What you're doing could be beneficial for mafia, maybe".  That isn't an argument at all - you might as well claim anyone on a day one mislynch must be scum because getting a townie lynched on day one is a reasonable scum strategy.

In any case I question your definition of "reasonable scum strategy" if "attract tonnes of attention and votes to yourself on day one when you could just be engaging in meaningless chatter like everyone else" counts as one.

It's obvious you're just scared of the fact that I've exposed your secret this early, because you have no actual logical reason to vote for me at all.  At the very least, the reasoning you have is a lot weaker than mine.

Are you an evil non-meteor-summoner Leafsnail?
Yeah.

Leafsnail: why do you want to kill the only one we've got confirmation of being totally GoodTM?
Because this is a bastard mod, and having a mafia member falsely confirmed as town seems like a very solid bastard mod trick.  Also, do you even know if you are Good yourself?  Your argument relies entirely on the premise that the mod wouldn't make the mafia Good.  In a bastard game.

Leafsnail: am awaiting an explanation that does not have holes or involve a massive amount of speculation, where your only defense is "can you prove otherwise".  I respect that you are an experienced player who has cracked games, but your explanation seems far-fetched.  It smacks of a scum trying to cover his arse to me.
Ah yes, the old "cover your arse by attracting tonnes of negative attention on day one" tactic.  Seriously, what are you trying to accuse me of here?

Killing everyone, which a meteor impact will do, just ask the dinosaurs, oh wait you CAN'T, because they're all DEAD from meteor poisoning!!, is bad. Evil, even.
Again, how do you know?  I would refer to NGE as an example of a show in which a non-evil person summoned an apocalyptic meteor (incidentally the angel/meteor references make me think this game might have some relation to it).  And again, what makes you think we have to lynch the meteor summoners, even though the game starting post said that was a bad idea?

Why are you voting NQT? The vote-post explains to an audience, but leaves little for NQT to answer.
I explained several times.  NQT has the accusation to answer, I don't just post fluff questions just for the hell of it.

The problem, Leafsnail, is that you are only looking at the first level of deception: the outright lies or misdirections.  You aren't paying attention to the possible second level, where red herrings are planted to throw us off track.  I doubt that bastard mods are meant to be puzzled out in the first day, and Wuba is good at what he does.  I drew the conclusion you did upon first coming to understand what a bastard mod meant, but it is too simple.  Anyone who assumed that the mod was lying on everything could come to the same conclusion you did.
No-one did, though.  Before I made my post not a single other player had questioned the notion that NQT was town (in fact most players were rushing to say that he was), so clearly it isn't a super-obvious red herring at all.  I guess webadict could hide a pretty hard to get at red herring, but I don't think it's likely.  Red herrings are a bad thing to put into a puzzle because they make the puzzle a crapshoot of guessing which of the legitimate leads you have were just planted for no reason.

Also I didn't say that mod was lying.  My argument follows from the assumption that the mod is telling the truth but also trying to mislead us.

In all likelyhood, the mod is preying on our assumptions of a bastard mod, because many of the players know to look for things like that.  He said that he would only withhold information, but that does not mean that he will withhold ALL information.
This is just about possible, I guess.  But it would be a very well hidden red herring (nobody else found it before I did) if it is one.  Also, the best way to work out if it's a red herring or not is to lynch NQT.

Oh, and H.Walnuts: That would be an interesting twist, and something that I asked leafsnail to consider earlier, in a slightly different format, whereupon he told me that I was confirmed evil due to asking that.
"NQT is the only townie" is another possible interpretation, yeah.  In that case we should lynch him because he's the minority.

That piece of speculation does imply you're evil though (particularly with the way HissinhWalnuts phrased it), because otherwise your role PM would contradict it ("Are all the players except NQT in the game scum?  Oh wait a second I'm not, so that idea makes no sense").  I don't think being evil means you're scum in this game though, so go ahead and admit it.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - FULL - Setting Up...
« Reply #347 on: January 26, 2014, 05:24:28 pm »

Even if we then think Dr Nerjin and Wuba are scum, then why isn't he encouraging us to vote for one of them instead of the one confirmed town player?
You are not a confirmed town player - you are just confirmed to not have one particular (undefined) alignment.  You agreed with that before.  The fact that you're pushing your CONFIRMED TOWNIE status so hard now is suspicious, as is the fact that you're attacking me so hard for questioning it.

I'm not voting Nerjin or webadict because as I said I'm not as sure about them as I am about you, and also it seems far more likely that a player can be lynched than the moderators.

Simple answer: everyone has abilities on this game and my ability is that I'm confirmed town, possibly to balance out an otherwise scum-sided or third-party-saturated game.
If that was the case then webadict could have said "NQT is confirmed to be town", or when asked "what does evil mean" he could have answered "oh evil people are the mafia team".  If your power is that you're confirmed town it's a defective power that doesn't work at all.  Why?
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4maskwolf

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - FULL - Setting Up...
« Reply #348 on: January 26, 2014, 05:36:03 pm »

Even if we then think Dr Nerjin and Wuba are scum, then why isn't he encouraging us to vote for one of them instead of the one confirmed town player?
You are not a confirmed town player - you are just confirmed to not have one particular (undefined) alignment.  You agreed with that before.  The fact that you're pushing your CONFIRMED TOWNIE status so hard now is suspicious, as is the fact that you're attacking me so hard for questioning it.

I'm not voting Nerjin or webadict because as I said I'm not as sure about them as I am about you, and also it seems far more likely that a player can be lynched than the moderators.

Simple answer: everyone has abilities on this game and my ability is that I'm confirmed town, possibly to balance out an otherwise scum-sided or third-party-saturated game.
If that was the case then webadict could have said "NQT is confirmed to be town", or when asked "what does evil mean" he could have answered "oh evil people are the mafia team".  If your power is that you're confirmed town it's a defective power that doesn't work at all.  Why?
I have said many times that I am not convinced that he is confirmed town.  That has been my line all along.

Also:
Tiruin, thank you for explaining the concept of the puzzle to me. I have a few theories on the "slightly bastard" aspect:

1. I'm not convinced yet that NQT isn't third-party. The definition given was "not evil", which is slightly different from good. That being said, I don't think we need to worry about NQT right now, because s/he isn't one of the rock summoners.

2. I have a suspicion that there is a sort of sub-game regarding the items. The idea of rotating "roles" is interesting enough, but it was stated by Wuba that information would be withheld.

That's what I have right now, for what it's worth.
I questioned it right here.  This was before you posted.

You claim that you figured all of this out before anyone else did, but that just isn't true.  You were the first one to actively voice it, certainly.  I had already come to the conclusion you had and dismissed it as too simple.  I questioned NQT's "confirmed town" status because I believed something to be up, but given the fact that the mod had been ambiguous on damn near everything, I decided to hold back until I had more information.  You, on the other hand, went ahead and posted what you suspected.  You seem to be missing the "slightly-bastard" part of the description: this isn't full-on bastard mod, even though both of us and probably several others have been looking at it that way.

notquitethere

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - Day 1 - Class Selection
« Reply #349 on: January 26, 2014, 05:39:38 pm »

Does Anyone Actually Have A Wincon?

The opening post assumes we all know how to play mafia and are going to follow all usual conventions unless told otherwise. I was told I'm confirmed town and everyone else was told I'm Not Evil and now Wuba is being hyper-unhelpful and is getting his jollies from watching the ensuing terminology confusion play out.

The set up implies that we should be hunting down the meteorite summoners. But there's not much reason to suppose that this is really the case.

Is this even a game? What's the point? Can everyone answer these three questions:

  • Are you evil?
  • Do you have a wincon?
  • Did you summon the meteorite?
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4maskwolf

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - Day 1 - Class Selection
« Reply #350 on: January 26, 2014, 05:41:03 pm »

1. no
2. no
3. no

HissinhWalnuts

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - Day 1 - Class Selection
« Reply #351 on: January 26, 2014, 05:41:48 pm »

1. I am confused on this. It doesn't say 'Your evil' or similar message.
2. Not apparently.
3. No, unless I have been bastered.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - Day 1 - Class Selection
« Reply #352 on: January 26, 2014, 05:50:22 pm »

NQT: I take it that you answer no to all three?

Tiruin

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - Day 1 - Class Selection
« Reply #353 on: January 26, 2014, 06:02:21 pm »

PFP

NQT
Does Anyone Actually Have A Wincon?

The opening post assumes we all know how to play mafia and are going to follow all usual conventions unless told otherwise. I was told I'm confirmed town and everyone else was told I'm Not Evil and now Wuba is being hyper-unhelpful and is getting his jollies from watching the ensuing terminology confusion play out.

The set up implies that we should be hunting down the meteorite summoners. But there's not much reason to suppose that this is really the case.

Is this even a game? What's the point? Can everyone answer these three questions:

  • Are you evil?
  • Do you have a wincon?
  • Did you summon the meteorite?
I'd like to hear your answer to this, NQT.
You do know that-if any of the above is true; people can just say no and deny, yes? Hypothetical aside:

> Noop!
> I'm assuming it, but directly? Not even a word of 'wincon//you win when:...[stuff]'
> Wut? Doesn't say any connected, just a background in the PM about who you are, what you possibly wished to be, some physical description that relies on labels, aaaand some talk about context-class -whoyouare- in accordance with powers mentioned.

do you think genders play a good difference?
Also: I take it that your vote towards me...is because I called you male, right?
I voted you before because you weren't paying attention. I'm now voting Leafsnail as he's paying even less attention and making more noise about it
...Weren't paying attention = scum?
...
Leafsnail explains his thoughts. You poke at his generality. Problem being, others are also doing the same.


Now let me propose this. NQT, as a player, is adverse of screeching 'I AM TOWN' to the masses. Counter point: Can you detail what you know from being the Class President about this moral sleight in terminology?

What do you fully believe about it?
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webadict

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - Day 1 - Class Selection
« Reply #354 on: January 26, 2014, 06:05:53 pm »

webadict: Is there anything we can do to prevent the apocalypse?
Which one?

  • Are you evil?
  • Do you have a wincon?
  • Did you summon the meteorite?
1. No.
2. What's a wincon? Is that even a word?
3. No.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - Day 1 - Class Selection
« Reply #355 on: January 26, 2014, 06:07:53 pm »

PFP

NQT
Does Anyone Actually Have A Wincon?

The opening post assumes we all know how to play mafia and are going to follow all usual conventions unless told otherwise. I was told I'm confirmed town and everyone else was told I'm Not Evil and now Wuba is being hyper-unhelpful and is getting his jollies from watching the ensuing terminology confusion play out.

The set up implies that we should be hunting down the meteorite summoners. But there's not much reason to suppose that this is really the case.

Is this even a game? What's the point? Can everyone answer these three questions:

  • Are you evil?
  • Do you have a wincon?
  • Did you summon the meteorite?
I'd like to hear your answer to this, NQT.
You do know that-if any of the above is true; people can just say no and deny, yes? Hypothetical aside:

> Noop!
> I'm assuming it, but directly? Not even a word of 'wincon//you win when:...[stuff]'
> Wut? Doesn't say any connected, just a background in the PM about who you are, what you possibly wished to be, some physical description that relies on labels, aaaand some talk about context-class -whoyouare- in accordance with powers mentioned.

do you think genders play a good difference?
Also: I take it that your vote towards me...is because I called you male, right?
I voted you before because you weren't paying attention. I'm now voting Leafsnail as he's paying even less attention and making more noise about it
...Weren't paying attention = scum?
...
Leafsnail explains his thoughts. You poke at his generality. Problem being, others are also doing the same.


Now let me propose this. NQT, as a player, is adverse of screeching 'I AM TOWN' to the masses. Counter point: Can you detail what you know from being the Class President about this moral sleight in terminology?

What do you fully believe about it?
Tiruin... he was like the fourth or fifth person to launch a case against Leafsnail.  Not the first.  I don't know who that was, but is wasn't him.

Tiruin

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - Day 1 - Class Selection
« Reply #356 on: January 26, 2014, 06:18:18 pm »

-boop!-
Tiruin... he was like the fourth or fifth person to launch a case against Leafsnail.  Not the first.  I don't know who that was, but is wasn't him.
I don't mind who is first or anysuch. That just speaks of where the origin is and what basis exists.

The problem: People are voting those who vote NQT without leaving them questions. If you'd have wanted LS to explain himself, then direct it against his posts, exactly as they are--I don't have time, now, to read and fully check on stuffs other than LS/NQT's words. His questioning lies in his accusation.
Quote
I explained several times.  NQT has the accusation to answer, I don't just post fluff questions just for the hell of it.
NQT counterpoints, but also belays the idea of Not Evil having a mark with people's roles.
We have no wincon, we don't know what to do.
Hence I propose looking back at the context:
> METEORS!

Now, not to impute our modern knowledge of meteors in a fantasy setting--meteors, are not asteroids. These things burn up in the atmosphere, and if it was summoned-given the context-the time of day would rather really limit our talk...as in, we really can't do anything about it as it'd hit (or burn up) at day end. And it didn't even say if it was going to hit Earth or whateverplanetwe're on. It is implied that people who did such are evil.

however Webadict didn't asnwer the note on what these various circumstances are that is holding him up--the cause of our delay of class! But the meteor summoning is bad, so other than a scientific background-we've to rely on symbolic background. That bad stuff happened.

AND THEN the class goes kill-crazy! (Flavor is done by nerjin, by the way)

Nerjin/Webadict: What is the school rules about offenses against other people? Is killing against the school law? Against the class law?
Questions like these give an idea about what the day-end looks like. We'd all assume kills--A hammer does not dictate day end, as in literal day end (...6:00pm whatever), but we have to assume it ends our class!
Official Secretary nerjin: Has any kind of class been plotting deaths and killing people before?

@NQT: Thanks for addressing me, (but it was..also rather late. Thanks anyway)

PFP argh.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - Day 1 - Class Selection
« Reply #357 on: January 26, 2014, 06:24:18 pm »

Mr. Wub Badict: Would you consider summoning meteors to hit the earth an evil act?

Tiruin

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - Day 1 - Class Selection
« Reply #358 on: January 26, 2014, 06:26:40 pm »

Holy bloody cheese.


1. What the hell is the context of this meteor?! It isn't even said if it is bad. It is assumed it is bad.
2. NQT has the say on what decisions happen. "We'll vote, on I dunno-the person who gets the most votes.".
NQT: What is your say?
3. We are Against killing. The inquisitor was against it, as foretold here.
4. Seriously, Teacher, what's up with the random thing on the meteor?
NQT: Expound on this meteor shenanigans. The scene starts in medias res.
The background concept seems...for warmth. Unless I can't parse programming.
Quote
“Error: Require Warmnumnum.exe”

“Too right my good looking friend,” The class flirt stated “I fear I may lose out on true love due to this meteor business.”
...And its somewhat connected to love. >_>

OR

It's totally related to ToonyMan's Love-themed game, wherein a meteor hilariously crashes onto someone's house. ...Which I only say because of random connections, probably?
Bleh.
Getting my reads soon.
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mastahcheese

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Re: Smstr W / Love : A Lovely End Of The World - Day 1 - Class Selection
« Reply #359 on: January 26, 2014, 06:32:41 pm »

Leafsnail
Leafsnail:
Why is it that you think we should kill NQT, when they are confirmed not-evil? Why would this be your first plan, rather than waiting for a day or so to see how things fold out?
Because there's absolutely nothing in the OP, the game start flavour or webadict's answers to our questions to suggest that "not-evil" = "a person we don't want to lynch", but webadict is clearly trying to play on that natural assumption by calling NQT "not-evil".  In fact, I will turn the question around: why do you think NQT is confirmed as not scum in spite of the fact that webadict has told us nothing of the sort?
Because of, quite frankly, Occam's Razor. The simplest answer is likely the right one. NQT is confirmed not-evil, therefore, confirmed town.
You keep saying "You clearly don't understand a bastard game", but it is YOU who is being willfully ignorant. This isn't a bastard game like the ones you mentioned, this is a slightly bastard game. The odds of a slightly bastard game having as contrived of a puzzle as you hypothesize is rather, in my opinion, low. You keep trying to over-inflate the issue, but really, you're treating this like it's larger than it is, or you're scum going for an easy town lynch. Use Occam's Razor again, and odds are you're scum.

It's my first plan because I have now acquired a reputation for solving bastard games, so if the scum has a kill they will probably murder me night one to shut me up.  Plus, the sooner I lay out my case the more time I have to argue for it.
Way to let that get to your head. I don't know you, but I'd suspicious of anyone that wants to advertise themselves. Your reputation doesn't mean jack to me.

Killing everyone with a meteorite is evil. I am confirmed good and not evil.
This contradicts your previous paragraph.  Anyway, I still have my two answers to this: firstly, that meteor launching needn't be evil (perhaps this is like NGE or something where the world will be reborn anew afterwards - purging the wicked could be A Good Cause), and secondly that we don't know if we're actually supposed to be lynching the meteor summoners.  Heck, in the game start post webadict suggested that would be a bad idea.
Um, where do you get this theory from?

NQT
Does Anyone Actually Have A Wincon?
  • Are you evil?
  • Do you have a wincon?
  • Did you summon the meteorite?
I am not evil.
I do not have a wincon, however, I will openly admit that my Role PM specifically said that I must "hunt evil" however it was not mentioned as a wincon.
No, I did not summon the meteor. (Technically, it's a meteorite when it hits, right now it's just a meteor.)
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Oh look, I have a steam account.
Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
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