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[notquitethere]

I think this board tends towards balancing through excess of overpowered abilities. If everyone has the chance to be completely gonzo, then it evens out.

[Mephansteras]

I have no idea what you're talking about <<  >>

[RoseHeart]

So I was thinking about a Mafia setup that would favor aesthetics, such as my art panels in BPM3.

One where things are regular, so no shortening, but also explain why lynch kills can only happen at the very end.

I remembered an episode of The Outer Limits, where a person had volunteered to be in a deep underground bunker, with access to launch nukes on the surface in case the world was invaded by Aliens. There were others in these bunkers, always 1 person per bunker, all with the same power, and they stayed in communication with each other and played chess or chatted at mealtime over the monitors.

It would be an interesting setup if each player is in an isolated bunker, and they can vote for a lynch and when the time runs out the chosen victim's slaughter is automated. This fits the aesthetic of the group not being able to just strangle them until that final moment.

[Vector]

I was going for something like that with the games in the Lonely Prince series (prioritizing aesthetics). If this nonsense keeps going viral through next summer I might actually go crazy enough to run something again. I'm writing this to remind future-me to reach out to you about a collab.

Horatio Hall: *rises from the dead*

[FallacyofUrist]

So I'm thinking of running a sequel to Mostly Vanilla Mafia after BYOR15 ends, provided roseheart doesn't claim priority. I'd like to get a little feedback on the setup I ended up using for Mostly Vanilla Mafia before I run Mostly Vanilla Mafia 2, though. Should help me put my ideas together a bit better.

[webadict]

If this nonsense keeps going viral through next summer

... Poor choice of words.

[webadict]

If this nonsense keeps going viral through next summer

... Poor choice of words.

But do it!

[Toaster]

I do think the next game should be lower on the crazy scale.



That said, rereading Third Party Mafia (and also Roguelike Mafia) made me pine for them a bit.  With the benefit of much hindsight I feel like Roguelike Mafia might be a bit too random to balance out, but that's also sort of the main idea.  I'd certainly want to go over the item list before I even considered it again.

[notquitethere]

I've been working on a spiritual successor to the CYOM games. My aim is to give players lots of choice still, but make it a lot less breakable and instantly OP than in the past. Suggestions and comments welcome! I especially want to know any game-breaking combos that win the game for scum, or make mass claim instantly win the game for town.

Some changes:
1 - It's now class based, with lower-level powers needed to be purchased before higher level powers.
2 - You pick your species before the game starts which are equivalent to the old auto protections in the last game.
3 - You're given a random profession, like in normal mafia games, but after the end of D1 the direction you go in is completely up to the players.
4 - The aim of 2 & 3 is to prevent ability/species/profession choice from being instantly suspicious. This should open up some nice variety of roles while still allowing huge amount of freedom of choice and strategising later on.
5 - To that end there are 12 unique professions, each with 4 unique abilities, for 48 abilities in total (49 including the mafiakill).
6 - To make fake claims easier, there are no direct role or alignment inspects.

Spoiler: CYOM - Redux (click to show/hide)

Pick a species before the game begins. You will be assigned a random profession.

Species gives you unique protections. The Profession gives you Abilities. Each Profession has several abilities in it, forming a tree. To get later abilities, you have to have earlier ones. At the end of every day that you survive, you gain a new level in any one Profession. Specialise in one Profession, or branch out into several. Remember, you can only perform one action per phase.

Mafia gain this ability: Mafiakill [DEADLY][KILL] - Once per night, one mafia member can use their ability to perform the mafia kill
(this ability is immune to [WARPING] powers and cannot be sold by a merchant).)

Species
Stoneman - Cannot be poisoned or infected. [CORPSE] actions don't work on your corpse.
Llama - You don't show up up in the action reports of [ENLIGHTENING] abilities.
Ent - [TWISTY] powers can never redirect your actions.
Letterbeast - [WARPING] powers don't work on you.
Djinn - You cannot be blocked or protected against.
Pixie - You cannot be killed by [TRAP] abilities.
Golden - [VILE] powers don't work on you.

Professions
==Duelist==
1 - Challenge (redirect the target's target to you- if your target is using an ability with two  targets, you become the second target)
2 - Block (the targets action will fail, but they won't know why)
3 - Duel [DEADLY] [KILL](the target will be killed; if they have a [KILL] action, if possible they will target you with that instead of their original target.)
4 - Riposte [TRAP] [TWISTY] (any action (other than a riposte) that would successfully target your target, is reflected back on the targeter instead)

==Priest==
1 - Atone (remove Curse)
2 - Delay [WARPING](Target's action happens in the next cycle, regardless of whether it could normally happen)
3 - Sanctify [DAY][TRAP][DEADLY] (the last player to vote for your target will die if the target is lynched).
4 - Resurrect [CORPSE] (bring a player back from the dead)

==Doctor==
1 - Cleanse (remove poison & infection)
2 - Protect (prevent blocks and [KILL] actions from affecting your target)
3 - Infect [DEADLY] (player becomes Infected. They will die at the end of the next phase. Everyone an Infected person successfully targets also becomes infected. An Infected person knows that they are infected. While a person is infected, all their abilities that can target someone have the DEADLY tag.).
4 - Triage [UNTARGETED][DAY] (everyone is cured of infection and poison.)

==Spy==
1 - Coverup [VILE] (target doesn't appear on [ENLIGHTENING] action reports.)
2 - Track [ENLIGHTENING](see who your target targets)
3 - Blackmail [VILE] (your target has no vote in the following phase)
4 - Boobytrap [PUBLIC][DAY][TRAP] (the next person who targets your target this cycle will be targeted by a free [KILL] action from your target.)

==Surveyor==
1 - Check Papers (Learn the species of your target)
2 - Poll [UNTARGETED] (Receive a random list of half of all Profession names in play)
3 - Watch [ENLIGHTENING] (See everyone who targets your target)
4 - Spotlight [ENLIGHTENING][UNTARGETED] (Every ability has a 50% chance of being public this night)

==Merchant==
1 - Sell Shield (target gains a shield: the next [KILL] action on them fails. Shields don't stack. Gain +1 Gold.)
2 - Sell Sword (target gains a one-shot Duel ability; this appears in Read Palm results. Gain +2 Gold.)
3 - Sell Ability (give a random ability as a one shot. Gain +X Gold, where X is twice the level of the ability given. You don't learn what ability was gifted, though you do learn its level.)
4 - Cash Out [DAY][SELF] (spend 20 gold, personally win the game regardless of wincon; you leave the game, leaving no body either live or dead.)

==Flowermaiden==
1 - Buttercup (learn whether your target has any [VILE], [TWISTY] or [WARPING] abilities, though you don't learn which or how many.)
2 - Lily (learn whether your target has any [DEADLY] or [CORPSE] abilities (including one-shots), though you don't learn which ones or how many).
3 - Poppy [DEADLY] (target is Doped: they cannot take more than one action in the next cycle. If someone is doped twice in a row they die.)
4 - Belladonna [DEADLY] (target dies; note this doesn't count as a [KILL] action.)

==Witch==
1 - Read Palm (learn one random tag of one random ability of your target)
2 - Read Entrails [CORPSE][ENLIGHTENING] (learn the last person to target one dead player)
3 - Curse [VILE] (the target can never gain new abilities or items)
4 - Hypnotise [WARPING](target uses one of their powers on a second target of your choice; either name a power you think they have or use a random power. This doesn't use up the target's action for the phase).

==Fool==
1 - Randomise [TWISTING] (Randomises the target of actions the target takes)
2 - Ability Swap [WARPING] (swap any power you have, including Ability Swap, with a random ability your target has)
3 - Redirect [TWISTING](redirect one target onto another)
4 - Bodyswap [WARPING](you gain your target's species and professions and status conditions, and they gain yours)

==Assassin==
1 - Calling Card [VILE] (the target receives a message of your choosing of up to 20 words)
2 - Poison [DEADLY] (the target will die at the end of the next cycle, they know they're poisoned)
3 - Hide [UNTARGETED] (you cannot be targeted until the end of the next day; you cannot perform any other actions of any kind until the end of the next day.)
4 - Murder [KILL][PUBLIC][DAY][DEADLY] (kill the target at the end of the day.)

==Necromancer==
1 - Medium [CORPSE] (open a chat with one dead player)
2 - Channel [CORPSE] (Use the ability of one dead player)
3 - Consume [VILE][CORPSE](destroy target dead player, they cannot be graverobbed, resurrected, raised or have their entrails read, gain an additional action use next cycle)
4 - Raise Zombie [VILE][CORPSE][WARPING](target dead player kills a target of your choice)

==Doge==
1 - Empower (target may use an additional action (without duplicating) in the next cycle)
2 - Buy Vote [VILE]  (gain your target's vote for the next phase)
3 - Ban [UNTARGETED] (name an ability: all uses of this ability will fail until the end of the next day)
4 - Pardon [PUBLIC][DAY](the target cannot be lynched at the end of the day)

Tags
[PUBLIC]: If an ability is public, there will be an action report declaring who targetted whom, though it won't say what the action was.

[DAY] powers mean you can use them during the day.

[SELF] powers always self-target.

[UNTARGETED] abilities don't have a target and don't trigger abilities which change targets or trigger on being targeted.

[CORPSE] abilities can only target the dead.

[VILE] abilities are non-fatal powers that nevertheless show unpleasantness or corruption.

[DEADLY] abilities can kill.

[TWISTING] abilities redirect someone.

[WARPING] make you act when you didn't choose to act.

[ENLIGHTENING] powers seek to investigate the movements of a target.

[KILL] actions are targeted kills that can be protected and shielded against.

Items and Conditions

Players may be gifted shields, and one-shot abilities. They learn at the end of the night phase any shields or one-shots they have been given, and any shields they have lost.

Merchants may accumulate gold. The only use for gold is the Cash Out ability. If a player has gold they will be told the amount at the end of each night phase.

Players may be Poisoned, Infected, and Doped. They are informed whether they (still) have any of these statuses and what they have at the end of each night phase. If a player isn't told they have a condition at the end of a night phase then they don't have it.

Action Sequence

All actions in a phase happen simultaneously. If the order matters, [TWISTY] powers happen first, then [WARPING]. [KILL] actions happen last. Otherwise, where there would be ambiguity, the order is chosen randomly.

Game Sequence:
Signups: Everyone sends me a species they would like to be.
N0: Everyone is randomly assigned one profession and is given their alignment; then they can send in a non-[KILL] action if they wish and are able.
D1: Day begins. At the end of the day, all survivors gain an additional level in any profession of their choice.
N1: Players use any night actions
D2-N2+: the game continues in this fashion, with new profession levels gained at the end of each day survived.

[4maskwolf]

Some thoughts on it:
1. Witch seems incredibly powerful as a town path.  While it's level one is garbage, its level 3 is situational and its level four is mediocre, Read Entrails is essentially an automatic alignment inspect on the N1 mafiakiller due to kills always happening last and kill actions not coming online till level 3.
2. Flowermaiden is straight up awful until you get its rank 4 power.  Ability type inspections are essentially deadweight abilities due to town and scum having access to the same ability sets and its rank 3 power only works on a handful of archetypes (necromancer, those empowered by doge, and those with rank 4 day powers) and overlaps with its rank 4.  Its rank 4 is good, as a kill action that (if I understand things correctly) bypasses protection, but you're stuck taking three days worth of useless powers to get there.
3. Merchant creates an easy breaking strategy where everyone just agrees at the start of the game to go down the merchant path and endlessly sell each other things until day 5 or 6 where everyone has enough gold to win.  Even with that aside, alternate win conditions are counterproductive to the town if anyone takes them since they have little incentive to pursue the primary town wincon.
4. The public actions are all extremely obvious.  One is a daykill so knowing who targeted who tells you who performed it, and the other two can be easily determined: a doge is fairly obvious due to their votesteal ability so anyone who hasn't votestolen before is a spy using booby trap, and by that point in the game a massclaim will have happened anyway.
5. You just couldn't resist putting in Changeling, could you?
6. Poison and infect removal exists on only a single archetype as its level 4 ability, by the time they unlock it that ability is unlikely to make a difference as the first round of infects and poisons will have already gone off and quite possibly decided the game.
7. The game is essentially over once N4 hits, as by that point pretty much every archetype has access to kills and it's a matter of how the kills, protects, and shields shake out overnight, which heavily favors the scumteam due to their ability to coordinate.
8. Stoneman creates a weird dilemma for the town: it's unambiguously the best pick to avoid early mafia multikills using poison and infect, but it also completely screws the town out of any possible use of medium, channel, resurrect, or (most importantly) read entrails if the whole town takes it.  The mafia team doesn't have this dilemma as they don't especially care about conversing with the dead or finding out who killed them (non-poison/infect town kills don't properly come online until "everybody dies night") and by the end of the game there will be too many kills flying around for reviving a dead scum to be worth it.  It also puts necromancer in a weird position where the entire archetype can be rendered useless by optimal choices.

Those are just some things I noticed from scanning over it.

[Vector]

6 - To make fake claims easier, there are no direct role or alignment inspects.

I'm into this.

[Nirur Torir]

Crazy setup idea for a smaller beginner's mafia that the Vengeful setup triggered:
5-6 players, 1 confirmed scum IC player, 1 scum beginner, 3-4 townies. It probably needs a neutral IC spectating and kibitzing, to keep the scum IC honest.
No roles or night kills, and the IC cannot be lynched.
The game ends when only 2 townies remain or if the beginner scum gets lynched.

I imagine that playing around a known scum would help with figuring out how to play off of guesses, and with seeing who has extra information. The small player count would, of course, make it much easier to start a game and get more beginners into the subforum.

[Vector]

That sounds absolutely nuts for the known scum IC. I'm provisionally in to play (pending someone else sanity checking the setup, I'm not good at that).

[4maskwolf]

Crazy setup idea for a smaller beginner's mafia that the Vengeful setup triggered:
5-6 players, 1 confirmed scum IC player, 1 scum beginner, 3-4 townies. It probably needs a neutral IC spectating and kibitzing, to keep the scum IC honest.
No roles or night kills, and the IC cannot be lynched.
The game ends when only 2 townies remain or if the beginner scum gets lynched.

I imagine that playing around a known scum would help with figuring out how to play off of guesses, and with seeing who has extra information. The small player count would, of course, make it much easier to start a game and get more beginners into the subforum.

Hmm.

I like the idea, but I'm not sure having an open scum, especially an experienced one, would teach what you're hoping for here.  Scum use extra information and coordinate with one another so long as they are hidden, but the moment a scum is outed pretty much everything they say from that point becomes worthless.  Everyone knows they're lying and trying to mislead you, and they know that everyone knows they're scum, so best policy is to completely tune out a 100% caught scum.  In a lot of other communities an outed scum is generally expected to either stay quiet or "lolcat" (post funny pictures) until their lynch because nobody is actually going to read the stuff they say anyway.

[notquitethere]

In general, all powers should have a relatively weak 1st level powers because this can be used at N0 and there should only be enough for suspicions.

4mask, you missed that Doctors can cleanse poison and infect from first level. An incredibly brutal D4+ is perfectly fine I feel-- everyone having access to kills potentially doesn't mean everyone genuinely will have kills by that point or use them, if previously CYOMs are anything to go by (only a minority of players chose vig roles).

Does the fact that species is chosen before you get alignment change things? Players don't know they're town before they pick pro or anti town species. Also, players rarely make the same judgement as to 'optimal' choice. With the nerfing of poison and infection, I don't think everyone will pick Stonemen, though some people will (especially as a lot of players will want to have the option of being resurrected).

I've made a bunch of changes, including a new profession. Any new thoughts?

Spoiler: Changelog (click to show/hide)

Major Additions
- Added the Thief Profession, mostly to mess with mass claims.

Alterations
- Read entrails information is no longer so instantly incriminating
- Given Assassin Frame instead, which allows them to create a cover before they murder and introduce doubt over all public actions
- Given Witch Poppy earlier, so there's no longer a kill overlap with Belladonna - note also that it prevents night actions if you've performed a day action in the same cycle (weak flowermaiden powers are okay though because their final power is the most powerful killing ability)
- Boosted LILY so it only hits DEADLY powers. This power can find mafia and falsify claims so it's pretty powerful.
- Scrapped the merchant side wincon for something funnier.
- Nerfed Poison and Infect, making them linger longer
- Stonemen now spread infection.

Spoiler: CYOM - Redux (click to show/hide)

Pick a species before the game begins. You will be assigned a random profession.

Species gives you unique protections. The Profession gives you Abilities. Each Profession has several abilities in it, forming a tree. To get later abilities, you have to have earlier ones. At the end of every day that you survive, you gain a new level in any one Profession. Specialise in one Profession, or branch out into several. Remember, you can only perform one action per phase.

Mafia gain this ability: Mafiakill [DEADLY][KILL] - Once per night, one mafia member can use their ability to perform the mafia kill
(this ability is immune to [WARPING] powers and cannot be sold by a merchant).)

Species
Stoneman - Cannot die from poison or infection, though you can still spread infection. [CORPSE] actions don't work on your corpse.
Llama - You don't show up up in the action reports of [ENLIGHTENING] abilities.
Ent - [TWISTY] powers can never redirect your actions.
Letterbeast - [WARPING] powers don't work on you.
Djinn - You cannot be blocked or protected against.
Pixie - You cannot be killed by [TRAP] abilities.
Golden - [VILE] powers don't work on you.

Professions
==Duelist==
1 - Challenge (redirect the target's target to you- if your target is using an ability with two  targets, you become the second target)
2 - Block (the targets action will fail, but they won't know why)
3 - Duel [DEADLY] [KILL](the target will be killed; if they have a [KILL] action, if possible they will target you with that instead of their original target.)
4 - Riposte [TRAP] [TWISTY] (any action (other than a riposte) that would successfully target your target, is reflected back on the targeter instead)

==Priest==
1 - Atone (remove Curse)
2 - Delay [WARPING](Target's action happens in the next cycle, regardless of whether it could normally happen)
3 - Sanctify [DAY][TRAP][DEADLY] (the last player to vote for your target will die if the target is lynched).
4 - Resurrect [CORPSE] (bring a player back from the dead)

==Doctor==
1 - Cleanse (remove poison & infection)
2 - Protect (prevent blocks and [KILL] actions from affecting your target)
3 - Infect [DEADLY] (player becomes Infected. They will die in two days time. Everyone an Infected person successfully targets also becomes infected. An Infected person knows that they are infected. While a person is infected, all their abilities that can target someone have the DEADLY tag.).
4 - Triage [UNTARGETED][DAY] (everyone is cured of infection and poison.)

==Spy==
1 - Coverup [VILE] (target doesn't appear on [ENLIGHTENING] action reports.)
2 - Track [ENLIGHTENING](see who your target targets)
3 - Blackmail [VILE] (your target has no vote in the following phase)
4 - Boobytrap [PUBLIC][DAY][TRAP] (the next person who targets your target this cycle will be targeted by a free [KILL] action from your target.)

==Surveyor==
1 - Check Papers (Learn the species of your target)
2 - Poll [UNTARGETED] (Receive a random list of half of all Profession names in play)
3 - Watch [ENLIGHTENING] (See everyone who targets your target)
4 - Spotlight [ENLIGHTENING][UNTARGETED] (Every ability has a 50% chance of being public this night)

==Merchant==
1 - Sell Shield (target gains a shield: the next [KILL] action on them fails. Shields don't stack. Gain +1 Gold.)
2 - Sell Sword (target gains a one-shot Duel ability; this appears in Read Palm results. Gain +2 Gold.)
3 - Sell Ability (give a random ability as a one shot. Gain +X Gold, where X is twice the level of the ability given. You don't learn what ability was gifted, though you do learn its level.)
4 - Investment [DAY][UNTARGETED] (if you spend 5 gold, your next night action can be self-targeted.)

==Flowermaiden==
1 - Buttercup (learn whether your target has any [VILE], [TWISTY] or [WARPING] abilities; though you don't learn which or how many.)
2 - Poppy [DEADLY] (target is Doped: they cannot take more than one action in the next cycle. If someone is doped twice in a row they die.)
3 - Lily (learn whether your target has any [DEADLY] abilities (including one-shots), though you don't learn which ones or how many).
4 - Belladonna [DEADLY] (target dies; note this doesn't count as a [KILL] action.)

==Witch==
1 - Read Palm (learn one random tag of one random ability of your target)
2 - Read Entrails [CORPSE][ENLIGHTENING] (learn one of the professions of one random person who targeted a dead player)
3 - Curse [VILE] (the target can never gain new abilities or items)
4 - Hypnotise [WARPING](target uses one of their powers on a second target of your choice; either name a power you think they have or use a random power. This doesn't use up the target's action for the phase).

==Fool==
1 - Randomise [TWISTY] (Randomises the target of actions the target takes)
2 - Ability Swap [WARPING] (swap any power you have, including Ability Swap, with a random ability your target has)
3 - Redirect [TWISTY](redirect one target onto another)
4 - Bodyswap [WARPING](you gain your target's species and professions and status conditions, and they gain yours)

==Assassin==
1 - Frame [VILE] [UNTARGETED] (name an actor and a victim: at the end of the next day a fake [PUBLIC] action report will appear saying the actor acted against the target)
2 - Poison [DEADLY] (the target will die in two days time, they know they're poisoned)
3 - Hide [UNTARGETED] (you cannot be targeted until the end of the next day; you cannot perform any other actions of any kind until the end of the next day.)
4 - Murder [KILL][PUBLIC][DAY][DEADLY] (kill the target at the end of the day.)

==Necromancer==
1 - Medium [CORPSE] (open a chat with one dead player)
2 - Channel [CORPSE] (Use the ability of one dead player)
3 - Consume [VILE][CORPSE](destroy target dead player, they cannot be graverobbed, resurrected, raised or have their entrails read, gain an additional action use next cycle)
4 - Raise Zombie [VILE][CORPSE][WARPING](target dead player kills a target of your choice)

==Doge==
1 - Empower (target may use an additional action (without duplicating) in the next cycle)
2 - Buy Vote [VILE]  (gain your target's vote for the next phase)
3 - Ban [UNTARGETED] (name an ability: all uses of this ability will fail until the end of the next day)
4 - Pardon [PUBLIC][DAY](the target cannot be lynched at the end of the day)

==Thief==
1. False Documents [UNTARGETED] (Name an ability: your False Documents now appear as that ability, with its tags, in all inspection results.)
2. Stakeout [ILLUMINATING][UNTARGETED] (name a profession: you will gain a list of all people targeted by members of this profession, though you won't know who targeted whom.)
3. Plunder (name a non-mafiakill ability you think your target has. If you're right, for the next cycle, gain that ability as a one-shot; they cannot use this ability for this cycle.)
4. Bait & Switch [TWISTY][DAY] (Name two targets: in the following night phase, everything targeting one player will target the other and vice-versa)

Tags
[PUBLIC]: If an ability is public, there will be an action report declaring who targetted whom, though it won't say what the action was.

[DAY] powers mean you can use them during the day.

[UNTARGETED] abilities don't have a target and don't trigger abilities which change targets or trigger on being targeted.

[CORPSE] abilities can only target the dead.

[VILE] abilities are non-fatal powers that nevertheless show unpleasantness or corruption.

[DEADLY] abilities can kill.

[TWISTY] abilities redirect someone.

[WARPING] make you act when you didn't choose to act.

[ENLIGHTENING] powers seek to investigate the movements of a target.

[KILL] actions are targeted kills that can be protected and shielded against.

Items and Conditions

Players may be gifted shields, and one-shot abilities. They learn at the end of the night phase any shields or one-shots they have been given, and any shields they have lost.

Merchants may accumulate gold. The only use for gold is the Cash Out ability. If a player has gold they will be told the amount at the end of each night phase.

Players may be Poisoned, Infected, and Doped. They are informed whether they (still) have any of these statuses and what they have at the end of each night phase. If a player isn't told they have a condition at the end of a night phase then they don't have it. A player is informed if they have been Plundered.

Action Sequence

All actions in a phase happen simultaneously. If the order matters, [TWISTY] powers happen first, then [WARPING]. [KILL] actions happen last. Otherwise, where there would be ambiguity, the order is chosen randomly. Hide triggers before any other action.

Game Sequence:
Signups: Everyone sends me a species they would like to be.
N0: Everyone is randomly assigned one profession and is given their alignment; then they can send in a non-[KILL] action if they wish and are able.
D1: Day begins. At the end of the day, all survivors gain an additional level in any profession of their choice.
N1: Players use any night actions
D2-N2+: the game continues in this fashion, with new profession levels gained at the end of each day survived.