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Author Topic: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 174393 times)

Meph

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1545 on: April 30, 2014, 07:19:10 am »

Is noted.

Suggestion:
Replace prisoner creatures with prisoner tools.
This means easy control of torture reactions.
Can be released to spawn the creature.
Can be used to gather more info, but destroys the tool.
Can be butchered to make bones/meat/soul/scalp.
Can be bisected to create more tools: 2legs, 1head, 2arms, 1 torso.
These individual parts can be used to "build" special pets or civ members.
 - Thrulls, civ members with random bodypart mixes.
 - Fishing pets.
 - Igors, medical-skill civ members.
 - "Repair" Ghouls.
 - Improve Ghouls, like double headed ones. Or add an extra arm.
 - Warbeasts, like 4 armed guard zombies.
 - Scout like "Screaming heads", use bodyless head as early warning system.
 - Animated arms and legs running around, because why not.
These bodypart tools could also be butchered for bone/meat.

Following new civ members:
 - Zombie. Learns no skills, acts as hauler.
 - Thrulls. Specifically build Ghouls.
 - Igors. The medical helpers.
 - Lich. A magically able skeleton type.
 - More Warlock castes.

Vampires are not very... neat. It seems it is too hard to micromanage them in their current state, so I will either remove or alter them. Suggestions for more Warlock types are more than welcome.
 
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
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Kiefatar

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1546 on: April 30, 2014, 09:28:38 am »

In addition, I'd increase the time until the first siege. As is, there's nothing to 'whet the whistle' so to speak. No thieves, Ambushes, or whatnot right up until the first siege. Often this is problematic, depending upon who's out there, but in any case it will probably kill 2/3rds of all forts. Secondary problems come with hunting/soul gathering. Wildlife is nice well and good, though Giant wildlife in more wild environs will rip early ghouls a new one and scourges are problematic against muscle/fat mass.

No, the real problem is Birds. They are so common, and can sometimes stick around for a long time and preclude most other prey animals. Bows/Arrows are viable... sorta, kinda... sometimes... not really... and Warlock spells well.. let's just say I still haven't seen a stock warlock/witch cast their inherent spell. Though maybe they simply don't have one?

Question, every 'successful' fort I've made has only ever gotten two waves of migrants and then done. This can cause serious problems as I simply don't have enough warlocks to do much and Skeletons/Ghouls are limited. Though a relaxation of the military structures would also be nice (as well as fixing skeletons going rogue and all the problems that causes with military formations.

As far as additional warlocks go...

Sorcerer/Sorceress - Starts off with one of the low level ranged spells (Not Fireball, though maybe firejet?) Skill sets lead more strongly towards Sorcery and the various combat disciplines.
Enchanter/Enchantress - Starts off with one of the reinforcing spells, Fury maybe? Charge? Their skill/training also allows them to become master armorers/weaponsmiths/craftsmen.
Summoner - Beast Masters, maybe start with more mephits, or some alternate combat capable pet. Skills leaning more towards animal care. Would require an expansion/cleanup of Warlock animal interactions and all the appropriate hostile-to-life and loyalty issues, as well as simply defining most of these things as trainable animals.
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Meph

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1547 on: April 30, 2014, 01:16:46 pm »

Two migrant waves is intended. Scalp/soul gathering: Raids with your Overlord.

Later sieges is very easy to do, you can even do it yourself with the launcher.

I will increase the rate of Warlocks though.

Warlocks could get a ranged spell.
Witches a slow/paralyze spell.
Summoners make Mephits once a year (normal Warlocks wouldnt create them anymore)
Sorcerer gets three minor starting spells. Support, mostly.
Enchanter creates a random, magical item/weapon/armor. (free once a year, like Mephits)
Necromancer buffs zombies/ghouls/skeletons around him. (good military leader)

Thats six castes, with different abilities. Ranged, melee, AoE, Support, Creature creation and item creation. Sounds good so far?

I could buff whip-weapons. They had been nerfed because vanilla whips are lightsabers.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 01:18:47 pm by Meph »
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
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Kiefatar

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1548 on: April 30, 2014, 01:46:24 pm »

I honestly don't really see the connection between whips and ghouls personally... Whips require serious finesse and fine control/dexterity to use properly. Even then, they are not weapons of war and any armor really would stop all but critical hits traditionally. Even if we expand it into the ideology of spiked chains or sickle & chain style weapons, it's still beyond what I'd assume a 'ghoul' could use.

Maybe you could change ghouls up to be more wrestlers/strikers and give them claw blades/knuckles instead? I'm just thinking of frequent expressions of ghouls in fiction being either 'living' deranged flesh eaters, or true fleshy undead flesh eaters. In either case, yes they are more lively than zombies. Hardly what I'd call a functional member of society, let alone a warrior that could manage the control necessary to use a whip.

I'd rather see them be the true ravening fearless flesh eaters they should be. Claws at least still mimic natural, beastial movements. Though, take all my comments with a grain of salt, but additional changes to ghouls...

1. No Labors at all. They are ravening beasts, meat-shield
2. Fury, Charge, or some sort of frenzy inherent, or at least via some sort of upgrade... (Alchemy?) As either hideously tortured souls, or ravenous undead, in either case they would lack the dexterity or mental aptitude to do anything but attack. Military/weapon skills are fine I suppose. Granted, skeletons too don't have much in the way of brain-power, but their more arcane origins can explain some of that.
3. Meat-eaters. Like Kobolds, they should subsist entirely off of meat. Maybe get stronger the more they kill/eat? Regenerative effects relative to eating? D&D Ghouls had paralytic poisons, but that's a bit much.
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Meph

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1549 on: April 30, 2014, 01:55:49 pm »

I wanted them to be melee-only, but they sucked. But a claw weapon makes perfect sense. I feel a bit silly now.

1. They need labors for the graphics, they are tied to professions.
2. I could add a frenzy ability from drinking blood/bloodwine. Would give it more uses.
3. They already are BONECARN and only eat meat.
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
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Kiefatar

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1550 on: April 30, 2014, 02:18:23 pm »

Maybe Hunting only? I guess your current limitations work...
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Isngrim

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1551 on: April 30, 2014, 03:17:46 pm »

small suggestion:
i was think it would be more with the theme of the mod to rename the Codex of Vampirism and the  Codex of Lycanthropy to the Codex of Blood and Codex of the Moon.


- Animated arms and legs running around, because why not.
Mannequins anyone?
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08:43 PM The wild animals and insects sang a merry tune and the trees performed a dance. I know you're trying to cheer me up, Vishnu, but that was actually a bit creepy.-Rhons

Omnicast

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1552 on: April 30, 2014, 03:24:05 pm »

How about making Soul Wisps and Pain Elementals flyers? If possible limited flying like... only a few Z levels above the ground. Maybe as an early AA system?

The idea is that whatever kills them will fall asleep and fall to the ground. As for the pain element maybe the explosion will knock them out of the sky? Fall damage plus being stunned... it seems like a good idea. Anyways these would just help get the enemies to the ground. Where the devouring undead hordes are waiting. =D
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Isngrim

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1553 on: April 30, 2014, 03:30:37 pm »

How about making Soul Wisps and Pain Elementals flyers? If possible limited flying like... only a few Z levels above the ground. Maybe as an early AA system?

The idea is that whatever kills them will fall asleep and fall to the ground. As for the pain element maybe the explosion will knock them out of the sky? Fall damage plus being stunned... it seems like a good idea. Anyways these would just help get the enemies to the ground. Where the devouring undead hordes are waiting. =D
flight pathfinding for pets is broken atm,from what i understand,they only fly if they dodge into open space.
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08:43 PM The wild animals and insects sang a merry tune and the trees performed a dance. I know you're trying to cheer me up, Vishnu, but that was actually a bit creepy.-Rhons

Omnicast

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1554 on: April 30, 2014, 06:13:43 pm »

Then could we get a stronger wisp that isn't a one time use creature? Maybe it could use more souls and a large gem or something. Hmmm make it upgradeable like skeletons.

Soul Wisp: Requires 1 soul. Puts enemies to sleep when killed.
Soul Fragment: Requires a Soul Wisp and 1 small Gem. Casts sleep 2 times before shattering. Has a casting range of 5. Also puts enemies to sleep when it dies.
Soul Cluster: Requires 5 Soul Fragment. Casts aoe sleep. Takes time to recharge after casting the spell 5 times. Has a casting range of 10.  Drops 2 small gems upon death. Gem type depends on large gem type. Also puts enemies to sleep when killed.
Soul Crystal: Requires 2 Soul Cluster, and 1 Large Gem. Casts aoe sleep without a limit. Casts Random/Various debuffs on enemies. It has a casting range of 15. Spawns 4 Soul Fragments upon death.

Probably needs to be balanced, but ya that's the general idea. A tiered system.

Another AA idea would be some sorta rotating quad ballista... that has 360 degree range of firing and only targets air units. It's range is around 40 tiles or so. Costs 10 mechanisms and 8 ballista parts. It requires someone to man it. The upgraded version of this could incorporate souls and maybe a few large gems.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 08:36:25 pm by Omnicast »
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Deinos

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1555 on: May 01, 2014, 09:14:05 am »

Hey all! Looking forward to giving these guys a try.

Can ghouls get turned by a werewolf's bite?
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Meph

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1556 on: May 01, 2014, 10:38:14 am »

If you just dont like flyers, give skeletons a couple of bows/crossbows. Thats it. No reason for massive upgrade systems.

Or I just make an anti-bird spell for Warlocks.

Or you remove birds by using the Gui when you gen a world for Warlocks. ;)

Ghouls can become normal werebeasts, yes.
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

Deinos

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1557 on: May 01, 2014, 11:34:27 am »

Excellent, thank ya. I look forward to establishing an elite ghoul werewolf husk Marine Corpse.
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fedobear

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1558 on: May 01, 2014, 01:39:09 pm »

EDIT: First of all, thanks to Meph for putting in time and effort and asking us for suggestions. I have played this game for about 6 months, having discovered masterwork two months ago, I must say warlock and the rest of MW are the most fun I've had with the game yet! Though if I am wrong on something or don't have a grasp on what's possible with the game, please feel free to correct.

suggestions:

on the topic of birds and flyers: perhaps the orrery can be used for an x-soul reaction (unsure about balance) that "call storm" or "create gusty winds" that temporarily knock fliers that are outside out of the air?

on improvements and changes generally, regarding meph's earlier post and reddit post:

1) removing the functionality of the graveyard and hoardmaster might be for the best, currently graveyard is more of a crutch for starting fortresses to create resources out of thin air, and hoardmaster sees almost no use due to that it's only attractive at early start to squeeze out a few more souls out of presumably wood, the easiest trade to fullfill, or only usable in lategame, to get rid of big stacks of unused resources, but by that time you should have other reliable ways to get souls.

Graveyards could be turned into decorational structure for the moment, and hoardmaster sprite could be used for a new building, crucible of power (see next point).

2) military organization can sometimes be a bit of a pain when you are forced into the current squad structure dictated by nobles. I am referring to the horsemen of the apocalypse, as well as the ghoul master and crypt lord. I do like the fluff they bring to the table, though, and their sprites.

Perhaps these titles could be set the same way the overlord is transformed, using a building ("the crucible of power") while regular militia captains are put back in? maybe turning them into these super-beings uses some reagents too, and buffs their skills? They could become part of special castes in some way to make sure their sprites display right. I dont know. Is this how it currently is done? Would like it if any civ member of any race was allowed to become them, I dont know if this is possible already either.

3) Skeletons having innate mining while not learning other skills. This is cool and all, but due to the way DF handles job-related equipment, its always so frustrating when my squad of skeleton archers drop their bow to the ground, turn into miners and go to pick up their pick and vice versa (when they are assigned or relieved from any movement or defend burrow orders).

Instead, why not add extra skeleton castes too? Each gets a different innate skill they specialize in and they still don't learn any extra without inscription. Monotonous tasks would be assigned to them, as well as combat skills that get them out of the direct line of fire, such as mining, gem-cutting, archery, metallurgy/weaponsmithing-stuff.

4) While on skeletons, I feel that warlock gameplay should be more about resource recycling, a sort of "tiered unit approach" where skeleton is the base you can fall back on. What I mean is that currently skeletons can be re-raised, as well as warlocks, but these new units you're envisioning and current ghouls can't. Worse even, they can't be butchered. I don't know if this is hardcoded into butchery or not (that you can't butcher your own civ) but perhaps a custom building can be of service. Something that takes in corpses of all types, even own civ, and produces souls and either limbs for ghoulcraft, or bones + flesh + scalp.

You won't be able to raise your ghouls that died in battle back, but at least you can create a skeleton out of their corpse (either one of a randomly chosen skeleton caste or a final caste that has no skills*). To save yourself the effort of building death trap rooms for your own units, there might even be an option to "vivisect living unit", tasking somebody to enter the machinery and be slowly stripped of skin and flesh, producing a bunch of it to be used, and most importantly preserving the skills that it had in life in the new skeleton (this is the payoff of doing this pre-emptively instead of waiting till they fall in battle, as well as the way to maybe get magic-casting skeletons i.e. liches). All civ members can also just do a reaction at this building to get themselves killed, in case you have some kind of need for that (skeletons included).

This would add a whole new layer of depth to skeleton and soul management. Are your ghouls/warlocks starving? Get one of your ghouls to be skinned alive to feed the rest, before they all starve. Are you one soul away from buying that awesome something you wanted? Get a skeleton or somebody else butchered. Did you diligently slaughter a whole invasion or ambush force? Perhaps you should create skeletons (or the new zombie units) out of them, and after they're done helping out with your build project they get turned into filled phylacteries and ironbone equipment.

(*I dont know if when this system is implemented newly raised skeletons should have innate skills, because "rerolling" your undesired skeletons into new ones might be unbalanced)

5) With all these changes to skeletons, to fiddle with the balance I wouldn't mind if the ironbone/bloodsteel upgrade system was taken away, as well as the pylon control. It's just very tedious, especially when miners dig out rooms in the worst way possible, cutting LOS. Instead, perhaps the control crystals should cost a bit more to make and be able to turn the unfriendly undead raised by the necro circle into undead that are not controllable but at least won't attack you.

6) Under this new system of prisoner taking, perhaps can we take the prisoners and turn them into warlocks too? An interesting angle would be either magical hypnosis/stockholm syndrome, and kidnapping of children (adding it as an extra raid target, as well as "plunder graveyard"  for corpses) to turn them evil at a young age and wait till they grow up.

Finally, as a personal request, can regular whips be put back in for production? Metal and leather ones that you can make at the leatherworker. It's mostly a fluff thing for the mistress. A scourge is just not the same. I was also going to ask if levers could be attached to coffins to dismantle them when activated (for purposes of mass reanimation) but it seems that from a previous post, corpses can be reanimated inside their coffins.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 01:42:59 pm by fedobear »
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Omnicast

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Re: [WARLOCK] - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1559 on: May 01, 2014, 04:01:44 pm »

Hmm *sigh* whelp if Meph doesn't like my ideas. Oh well.

In other news... my Overlord just fought off a seige of markdwarfs... by himself... killed one before the rest ran off. Those pansies... then again I probably would of done the same... I mean that first dwarf that fought my Overlord died... in a millisecond... not to mention he blocked and dodged every javelin thrown at him...

Now my problem is that... after they ran off I noticed my Overlord is moving at a snail's pace and a few of those shortstacks were earth magic users... so I'm thinking he got hit by some sorta slow spell. How long does this last? Is there anyway to remove it? Is there anyway to remove it... by cheating? XD
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 05:31:13 pm by Omnicast »
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