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Author Topic: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch  (Read 26636 times)

Leonidus

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Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« on: November 17, 2013, 10:12:08 pm »

Love the game, have played well over 200 hours probably, and I certainly have a proficiency with most things in Dwarf Fortress.  Played Nethack and MUDs some a long time ago, love randomization+rpg and so on.

This game truly is a work of art before the official recognition.  The obvious issues are graphics, user interface, and to a lesser extent some features left quasi-functional or vestigial bugs.

I think solving graphics is probably going to be a long hard haul, though some work has been made on that front, but user interface and general playability can be addressed directly by Toady.

The thing is, he prefers to add features (which is great), but doesn't like to change user interface and such because he is going to hate going back and changing it later.  But, people are going to play the game for 10-20 more years before it is released, with the current bad interface and related issues.

So, the solution is: start a kickstarter, raise a ton of money, and essentially hire Toady as a code mercenary for a just 1 year to make things better for the next 20.

This could work because:

1. He's on track to release a new big version soon, so he has just implemented a ton of features and could feasibly switch gears to something else for a bit.  The timing seems right, particularly because he is likely going to be over version .40, i.e. 40% completion to full 1.0 release.

2. He lives off donations already, and on a good year makes about 50,000$.  He already has a large playerbase that is accustomed to paying him.  Any decent drive could hit 100,000$ pretty much without fail, and 150,000 seems even more likely to be honest.

3. This is something a lot of Dwarf Fortress players would want, because it is essentially an investment of money to save them massive amounts of time.  Toady making the game not take forever to do simple things will add up to a lot of time saved over the next 1 or 2 decades.

4. It could mandate only a year need be spent on it, which in the long course of things would not interfere with his 20-30 year strategy much at all.

5. It does not need to include any other developer, only hiring Toady to do the job, which is a concern he has made clear in interviews.  He likes to be familiar with his own code.

6. It is something he's going to have to do eventually, so the only obstacle is, like he has mentioned himself, that as other features are added, UI functionality will be added and some things will have to be uprooted and redone later.  This is still him working on his game towards a 1.0 release.

7. The kickstarter would demonstrate a kind of popular vote from the playerbase.  If this is something that DF players really want, and would pay a lot to get, then that could influence the good-natured Tarn we all know and love.  Could really strike a chord with the guy.

8. Plethora of easily implementable playability suggestions are listed on the forums.  Lots of low hanging fruit.  Even a 6 month patch could work wonders.

9. The only extra backer reward necessary would be the patch.  He could set a threshold value for the regular crayon art & stories if he thinks he couldn't possibly dedicate that much time and crayon to a large number of donators.

In the end this one year spent fine tuning the game would really pay off big.  It could provide Toady with easy money, and the one string attached would be 1 year of working on his own game how he sees fit, limited only to this one less appealing aspect of it.  It would make playing the game demonstrably better for decades, and it could quite easily be done.

The only problems:

1. Toady just might not want to.  He has dedicated his life to this game, and always done only what he wants, so his whims are the ultimate trump card in the matter.  It is his decision what to do with his game and when.

2. He has received large monetary offers in the past (300,000$) and rejected them.  It was to buy the rights I believe, but it still shows he is resistant to financial pressure.  That's why he quit his job to work on it full time, obviously.

3. Tarn might actually take offense.  See it as "telling him what to do with his creation" kind of thing.  Some people get that way about their art.

4. Toady would have to setup the kickstarter.  We don't want anyone "raising the money" for him.  Might end in kobold thievery.  Even an overhead would be uncalled for, since he has his own donation setup.  Just no reason to let anyone else do it, but that means he must make the kickstarter page himself.

5. The kickstarter could fail.  His normal donations are steady, so I see this as pretty remote.  Also consider how cheap knockoffs get tons more money (Rimworld - 250,000, Stonehearth - 750,000). 100k or 150k seems pretty surefire, being only 2 to 3 times a good year of donations.

6. Possible legal issues with kickstarter.


TL;DR
Volunteer Toady for 1 year development of playability patch using kickstarter money
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Finn

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2013, 10:21:38 pm »

So all the numerous posts recently under all those aliases finally lead up to this.

There's already a way to give Toady money to work on Dwarf Fortress and I use it.  I encourage you too as well.

Good luck Dude, I'm not giving you any money through Kickstarter or anything else.


Sentiment retracted.  I have posted an apology here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133358.msg4789979#msg4789979
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 08:02:33 pm by Finn »
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Scelly9

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2013, 10:23:18 pm »

Why would he take that money? He has no reason to take it.
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acetech09

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2013, 10:23:25 pm »

I can't even breathe right now. Too much laugh.

Thank you for making my day.

I seriously hope this is sarcasm. If it's not, well, you are obviously new here. Try learning about the game, community, and most importantly Toady before spending your time pondering something like this.

edit: I mean that quite literally. Your post is full of thought but, I hate to admit it, rather misled. Toady has stated himself, many, many, times that the game is not about the money, and the prospect of paying him to build the game that the players want is, by everything I've heard him say in the last seven years, rather ludicrous. I invite you to prove me wrong, however.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 11:38:40 am by acetech09 »
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itg

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2013, 10:32:14 pm »

This kind of thing has (more or less) been brought up plenty of times before. In short, Toady's clearly not that interested in money, and he's got good reasons for doing things the way he's already doing them.

Personally, given the player base's success in making the game more playable, I'd rather Toady stick to working on features, anyway. The only problem here is that a lot of new players will not last long enough to find the Lazy Newb Pack.


So all the numerous posts recently under all those aliases finally lead up to this.

There's already a way to give Toady money to work on Dwarf Fortress and I use it.  I encourage you too as well.

Good luck Dude, I'm not giving you any money through Kickstarter or anything else.

If you actually read the post, you'd know he's not suggesting he would run the Kickstarter. He's proposing that Toady run one.

alexandertnt

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2013, 10:39:26 pm »

If the money is not used to hire outside help, how would simply having this money help speed up development (given he already works full time on DF)?
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Putnam

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2013, 11:25:25 pm »

Please, search before you post.

Threetoe:   Okay, so the last question from Nate in Idaho and he asks, 'I was wondering how often you spend working on DF daily and what can other players do to help you in your quest to expand the best game in the world? Also, as from the creators, do you have any tricks or general advice to help noobs?'
Toady:   I spend quite a lot of time on Dwarf Fortress. There are days where I don't get as much programming in as I would like because I'm doing the forum and email and stuff like that, but it's basically what I do, during the day. That's kind of it. But that's alright.
Threetoe:   I can testify to that, Tarn is every single day for most of the day on Dwarf Fortress, so you guys should appreciate that.
Toady:   At this point, other players, there's a lot of things you can do, you can help people out on the forum ... of course you can support Dwarf Fortress, go to bay12games.com to support Dwarf Fortress.
Threetoe:   Click on the little yellow chick-dinosaur thing.
Toady:   That's right, the cautionsaurus, click on the cautionsaurus and it'll tell ya how to help there, the pointing creature ... You can do all kinds of things ... make suggestions, help people out, help out with bug reports ...

Paying money won't really help with that.

He's also said in interviews that improving the UI now would be a pretty much worthless endeavor, since he's only about 37-40% of the way through the game as of the next version and fixing the UI now will just open it up to worse things in the future.

Finn

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2013, 01:57:56 am »

ZOMG!! QUICK, WE HAVE TO SAVE DWARF FORTRESS FROM TOADY!! 

Seriously, how many of these posts are we going to have to read before this guy gives up?  What is this, the fifth (one post) account in as many months about how the interface needs to be fixed so more people will play?

I can't believe I've bumped this twice but this sh*t really ticks me off.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 02:24:13 am by Finn »
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Kolnukbyne

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2013, 02:25:36 am »

There really needs to be a sticky thread somewhere explaining to people why a UI update won't happen for a good time.

The UI is functional. It works. It might be butt-ugly and a bit convoluted but it does its job. If you've played DF as much as you say you have then surely you've grown past worrying about the UI. I (and most other players) would much prefer new game features than reworking of things that already work exactly as intended and really wouldn't contribute to expanding the game in ay way.

Also, money ≠ work on UI. I'm not sure how you came up with that idea, but it's not a good one. You'd be better off camping outside his home with a protest sign.

Neonivek

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2013, 02:55:23 am »

There really needs to be a sticky thread somewhere explaining to people why a UI update won't happen for a good time.

The UI is functional. It works. It might be butt-ugly and a bit convoluted but it does its job. If you've played DF as much as you say you have then surely you've grown past worrying about the UI. I (and most other players) would much prefer new game features than reworking of things that already work exactly as intended and really wouldn't contribute to expanding the game in ay way.

Also, money ≠ work on UI. I'm not sure how you came up with that idea, but it's not a good one. You'd be better off camping outside his home with a protest sign.

The UI is hardly "functional"... I mean lets not kid ourselves here, there were things you had to look up how to do because there was no way to find out looking at the UI.

As for most other players... Well, I am going to have to test this.
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Kolnukbyne

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2013, 03:14:56 am »

There really needs to be a sticky thread somewhere explaining to people why a UI update won't happen for a good time.

The UI is functional. It works. It might be butt-ugly and a bit convoluted but it does its job. If you've played DF as much as you say you have then surely you've grown past worrying about the UI. I (and most other players) would much prefer new game features than reworking of things that already work exactly as intended and really wouldn't contribute to expanding the game in ay way.

Also, money ≠ work on UI. I'm not sure how you came up with that idea, but it's not a good one. You'd be better off camping outside his home with a protest sign.

The UI is hardly "functional"... I mean lets not kid ourselves here, there were things you had to look up how to do because there was no way to find out looking at the UI.

As for most other players... Well, I am going to have to test this.

"functional |ˈfʌŋ(k)ʃ(ə)n(ə)l|
adjective
1 of or having a special activity, purpose, or task; relating to the way in which something works or operates : there are important functional differences between left and right brain.
• designed to be practical and useful, rather than attractive : she had assumed the apartment would be functional and simple."
I dunno, I'd say that fits pretty well. It's functional, it's just not accessible and even then it's not that great a stretch to be able to learn how it functions to the point that you can memorise which command corresponds to the most used and important commands.

misko27

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2013, 03:55:23 am »

It's straightforwardly a roguelike UI. In terms of it's roots, DF is pretty par for the course: ASCII, letter based UI, minimal mouse use, non-intuitive rules abound, etc.
Love the game, have played well over 200 hours probably, and I certainly have a proficiency with most things in Dwarf Fortress.
Madness. 200, that is what, 8 days or so?


There is a lot wrong with this, but I hae stuff to do, so let me just disabuse you of your notions of "version 1.0". Today said in a NY times interview he expects the game to be ready in 20 years, or whenever. The notion implies toady will look at 1.0 and say "Yep, that's that. Time to move on to 'Slave to Armok: God of Blood Chapter 3, Goblin Horde'" or something. He won't. The concept of DF means he will inevitably expand, forever.

So all the numerous posts recently under all those aliases finally lead up to this.
I would like to know what this refers too.
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LordBucket

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2013, 04:22:26 am »

kickstarter

People already donate regularly. What's the benefit of requiring Toady to jump through all the hoops that kickstarter requires just for the sake of cutting kickstarter and amazon in for a portion of the money?

Iamblichos

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2013, 05:57:53 am »

This is awesome sauce.

The OP is the original 'bad girlfriend' - "No, baby, I love you, I just want to help you by getting you to change everything about yourself to make you better!"

Contrary to passive-aggressive canon, the solution to someone else working in a way you don't like is NOT to find a "gift" to give them that freaking enslaves them to your will.  Go back to your hole, shade of Sauron.
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8bitcontinuum

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Re: Kickstarter for Dwarf Fortress Playability Patch
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2013, 09:39:37 am »

The UI is fine once you you've played the game enough. But it definitely beginner friendly. I mean I've played the game a lot and still forget how to do certain things. I say leave toady to do his thing, the game is awesome how it is.   
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