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[CryptoCactus]

I guess I don't see what the issue is?

In vanilla, dwarf toughness stats (for instance) are:
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:TOUGHNESS:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250]

So average ~1250, max 2250.

In my notes, dwarves have
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:TOUGHNESS:500:900:1200:1250:1300:1600:2000]

Average ~ 1250, max 2000.

Max is slightly lower, but all "medium" creatures (dwarves included)  have had their size increased, as noted. I didn't say exactly how much (oops), but "medium" at the moment is 85000 body size (187.5 lbs, assuming urists are roughly equal to grams). Thus, all "major" races, less gnomes and halflings, will be larger, tougher and stronger than vanilla just through size alone.

Right? Or am I missing something?


quickedit: If I am wrong it's easy enough to change the attributes, no major problem. I just thought I'd thought it through pretty carefully, heh.

[Godlysockpuppet]

It's more a fact that since you're only nerfing -some- creatures, other creatures (most vanilla ones) will gain a boost due to your newly disadvantaged races. As said earlier, if you give a dwarf the average strength (ie. Same as vanilla defaults) they have the same strength as a weasel, or ardvark. I wouldn't use size to increase their weights really either, as it messes with weapons too. Give a dwarf size 80~whatever and he'll be able to wield serrated disks unless you nerf all the weapons too. In other words it's needlessly causing hassle for yourself.

[CryptoCactus]

Valid point about the weapons, hadn't thought that far ahead yet (though I've drawn up a few things, like dwarven urgoshes and gnomish hook-hammers)

You're probably right, best to keep sizes within known parameters (I'll probably make all medium races human-sized, 70000, then), since the gains from size increases aren't easily quantifiable. Which I even said myself, and then later contradicted myself, haha.

Good news is that changing the attributes is not a huge deal as I'm using custom c_vars for a lot of this.


Now I just need to figure out how exactly to translate D&D attrib number to DF attrib numbers, without over- or under-powering things.

Maybe I should just stick with the vanilla "formulas" for attrib changes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

0:100:200:300:400:450:500] ---
0:400:600:750:800:900:1100] --
150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500] -
200:700:900:1000:1100:1300:2000
450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250] +
700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500] ++
1250:1500:1750:2000:2500:3000:5000] +++

Edit: although I still don't so much get what you're talking about with the "same strength as a weasel" thing. I mean technically you are right, a vanilla weasel has the same strength attribs as a vanilla human. But it doesn't matter, because humans are so much larger. A human-sized dwarf with default attributes will still be as strong as a vanilla human.


Edit2: I'm thinking we are not even on the same page here. I'm not trying to be dense, it just happens naturally.

[Godlysockpuppet]

Hehe I'm just saying although a weasel is tiny and harmless; it still technically is as strong as a human just say d&d 18 = df max 2000 and you'll be fine :L if d&d = 20, just up the df max to 2400-2500, with the average being 1400-1500. Not difficult It will work out nicely

[CryptoCactus]

Duly noted. Sounds pretty good, I'll play with the numbers some.

I really appreciate all the input, by the way.

[Godlysockpuppet]

Duly noted. Sounds pretty good, I'll play with the numbers some.

I really appreciate all the input, by the way.

No worries if you need any help with conversion i'm happy to help. Generally it's easiest to increase the df values by 200-250 per d&d level ontop of the DF defaults.

[CryptoCactus]

OK, just to be sure we're on the same page, you're thinking something like this?:


D&D 18 =
200:700:900:1000:1100:1300:2000 (default/human range in stock raws)

D&D 20 =
700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500 ("++" range in the stock raws)

If so, that's very nice, as "++" == "+2", haha.

Contingent on your agreement with that, I think "-" is enough for the -2 D&D modifier, as it's "standard max"-500:

D&D 16 =
150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500 ("-" range in stock raws)


Using the above would give the following for dwarves:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

# "+2 CON" = "++"

[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:TOUGHNESS:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500]
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:ENDURANCE:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500]
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:RECUPERATION:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500]
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:DISEASE_RESISTANCE:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500]
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:WILLPOWER:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500]

# "-2 CHA" = "-"

[MENT_ATT_RANGE:LINGUISTIC_ABILITY:150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500]
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:EMPATHY:150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500]
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:SOCIAL_AWARENESS:150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500]
(plus PERSONALITY:x modifiers of course)

With all other stats being default (200:700:900:1000:1100:1300:2000) = D&D 18.

Yeah?

[Godlysockpuppet]

Precisely That looks perfect, and will have a noticable effect ingame

[CryptoCactus]

Aw yiss. Another fun thing about that, is that if 2500 = 20, and we accept that each additional 1pt D&D = 250pt DF, then 5000pt DF is = 30pt D&D, which is about the highest a PC can get naturally in 3.5e if I understand correctly (18 + 2 race + 8 leveled +2 epic, right?).

So even military dwarves who have trained their stats up to double the base max still make sense in both universes. Perfect!

[Stronghammer]

Have to say, looking at this so far it looks to be potentially really cool. It has at the very least helped me to understand the attributes of df much better.

[Putnam]

Hehe I'm just saying although a weasel is tiny and harmless; it still technically is as strong as a human

No, that's not even remotely true. Size is... oh, quadratically more important than strength by far. A weasel couldn't break a human's skin with a punch; a human could punch it in the upper body, send it careening into a tree, and watch as it explodes.

[Godlysockpuppet]

Hehe I'm just saying although a weasel is tiny and harmless; it still technically is as strong as a human

No, that's not even remotely true. Size is... oh, quadratically more important than strength by far. A weasel couldn't break a human's skin with a punch; a human could punch it in the upper body, send it careening into a tree, and watch as it explodes.

Well yes, I meant attribute wise their strength is the same

[Thuellai]

Technically speaking, 'average' is 10 in D&D.  18 presents the highest natural attribute for a creature whose average is on the human average - in other words, humans have an average of 10 in all stats, with a maximum of 18 representing the furthest natural peak, the end of the bell curve.  For, say, an Elf's dexterity, the +2 means that their racial average in that attribute is 12, and the top of their bell curve is 20.  The highest EXPRESSED stat, with bonuses, is 25, generally speaking (at least, I'm not aware of any natural creature with an attribute higher than 25)