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[CryptoCactus]

I am currently working on putting together a small D&D-flavored mod (based on 3.5ed), which I will "release" if it stands up to my own scrutiny. It is not going to be any major world-changing badass overhaul like Masterwork or Genesis. Most of the mechanics - and animal-type critters - will be good old DF ones.

What I'm looking to add:
- all 7 major races
- 3+ evil minor races
- a relatively small number of D&D animal-types
- a few of the larger/nastier D&D critters as megabeasts
- race-specific SKILL_LEARN_RATES, attributes, personality traits, and weapons



In D&D, all the "major races" more or less get along most of the time - regional wars etc. notwithstanding. Dwarves and gnomes may not particularly LIKE half-orcs, but they usually tolerate them (or at least they usually aren't kill-on-sight).

So there will be two major divisions of races:

1. The "major races" - humans, dwarves, elves, half-elves, gnomes, halflings, and half-orcs. None of these will be "babysnatchers", aka auto-hostile. If I make all of them playable, picking any race among them should give you the benefit of being able to trade with at least most of the others.

2. The "minor races" - goblinoids (goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, possibly all in one entity, or even just castes of one "umbrella" creature), orcs, and gnolls. These will be the "babysnatchers", aka automatically and permanently hostile to all major races. I am open to suggestions for other and/or replacement races here.


NOTES AND CAVEATS
-----------------

(1)

Obviously DF doesn't allow exact duplication of many D&D traits/attributes/etc.
I have done my best to approximate where possible - for instance, dwarves have a high average DISEASE_RESISTANCE, as I believe that's what the syndrome tag RESISTABLE checks, to simulate having "+2 poison resistance"
Other attribute approximations:

D&D Attribute -> DF Attribute(s)
STR -> STRENGTH
CON -> ENDURANCE + TOUGHNESS
DEX -> AGILITY
INT -> ANALYTICAL_ABILITY + MEMORY
WIS -> INTUITION + PATIENCE
CHA -> SOCIAL_AWARENESS + EMPATHY

So, for instance, dwarves would have:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

aim - +2 constitution, -2 charisma
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:ENDURANCE:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500] ++
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:TOUGHNESS:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500] ++
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:SOCIAL_AWARENESS:0:400:600:750:800:900:1100] --
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:EMPATHY:0:400:600:750:800:900:1100] --
aim - "poison/magic resistance" - I believe disease resistance is what the "RESISTABLE" syndrome tag checks
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:DISEASE_RESISTANCE:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500] ++


---

(2)

I will try to vary major races' ethics enough to cause at least occasional conflict, though this may require stepping out of D&D lore a bit, as most civilized races at least have a pseudo-compatible worldview with each other (e.g. eating other sapients and wearing their arse as a hat is generally a no-no), and wars in D&D lore are generally more regional/political than racial. Not much I can do about that afaik.

One other possibility is making each creature a CASTE within an "umbrella" creature. Problem with that, of course, being that they will then be able to interbreed (e.g. a halfling and a gnome marry and give birth to a half-orc), and they will all have access to the same ENTITY-related weapons, reactions etc., eliminating much of the variety.

---

(3)

Drow/duergar/svirfneblin/etc are neat. But I don't think underground civs work like I'd need them to, to do them justice. I could just make them underground INTELLIGENT LARGE_ROAMING critters, but then they wouldn't have weapons, armor etc.

Or I could make them like current underground civs, where you'll run into one band of them somewhere in the caverns and then never see them again.

Or I could just ignore them and wait for a more fleshed out version of underground civs in a future DF.

---

(4)

As D&D is quite magical and multi-planar and DF is... not, I will probably not be adding many celestial/infernal creatures - solars, glabrezus and the like - whose abilities are primarily magickish. I would be more interested in doing infernals, but I can't really replace clowns outright, so...

I will add a few here and there if they're fairly low-magic - barghests (in their 'taur form - head of goblin, body of wolf), ettercaps (spidery webslinging humanoids with poisonous bites), hippogriffs (horse-eagles) and such.

---

(5)

My experience with D&D is limited to playing the Baldur's Gate and NWN series, though I do have here a copy of the Player's Handbook, and this as a guide to critters. I openly welcome criticism, ideas, etc. from people more knowledgeable with the source material. And people more experienced at modding DF. And just people in general really.









(On a somewhat unrelated note, I finally figured out how to make creatures more hard-headed, to hopefully eliminate some of the "oh no, the cat head-bumped him and it shattered his skull, forced the skull into the brain and tore his brain!"

So I'll be doing that too.)

[Sutremaine]

If you wait until the next version, you could probably do something with the raws for hill dwarves or goblins and their subterranean dwellings.

Off the top of my head, pretty much everything that separates DF from D&D (3.5) will be easier to accomplish next version. Toady is unlikely to be doing too much to regional interactions though, so you could maybe add some planar characteristics to regions that support them.

[CryptoCactus]

If you wait until the next version, you could probably do something with the raws for hill dwarves or goblins and their subterranean dwellings.

Off the top of my head, pretty much everything that separates DF from D&D (3.5) will be easier to accomplish next version. Toady is unlikely to be doing too much to regional interactions though, so you could maybe add some planar characteristics to regions that support them.

1) That's true, but we don't really have an ETA on when the next DF will be along, right? I've only really been into it during the 34.11 phase - I tried it way back in the day, possibly 40d IIRC, but it didn't "stick" with me until earlier this year. I've never looked into it but I assumed Toady mostly followed the "done when it's done" release schedule, since it's just him and his brother working on it (right?).

2) That's actually a superb point I hadn't considered - we do have at least 3 region types that I could model as "planes" (good/evil/neither). I hadn't even thought of that - I was thinking more "vertically" (as in, HFS for the infernal planes, and <error:invalid entry> for celestial planes). Do caverns respect the "rules" of the overground region they're beneath? If so, I could make "horizontal planes" that just get more extreme as you go down.

[Sutremaine]

I'm not sure of the exact rules, but they don't respect good or evil biome tags. They do respect the reanimation interaction.

You can set different cavern layers to have different flora and fauna. Off the top of my head, there's little you can do to dwarves just wandering around except bother them with syndrome-inducing vermin. Hit and run attacks from ridiculously fast critters are another option for simulating environmental hazards, or attacks from creatures you can't hit back (vanilla example: frikkin' magma crabs).

[Godlysockpuppet]

These are poorly done, as soon DF stats are currently unused (such as music sense for instance)

D&D Attribute -> DF Attribute(s)
STR -> STRENGTH
CON -> ENDURANCE + TOUGHNESS
DEX -> AGILITY
INT -> ANALYTICAL_ABILITY + MEMORY
WIS -> INTUITION + PATIENCE
CHA -> SOCIAL_AWARENESS + EMPATHY

Would be better off as

Str->endurance, strength
Dex-> agility
Con->kinesthetic awareness, analytical ability, toughness, take endurance into effect here too, materials (for skins), willpower (used in pain calculations)
Int->skill rates. All I can say here
Wis->willpower (again..) kinesthetic (again...) and analytical (again..)
Cha-> what you said above seems good. Add [PERSONALITY:x] tags too, to better reflect this

[CryptoCactus]

Let me just get out my shovel here... and out of the shallow grave we go!

Not dead yet!

Godlysockpuppet: I took your suggestions into consideration and altered my stats slightly. Now more of a midground between my original set and yours.

Here are some more design notes thus far, input welcomed as usual:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

DESIGN CHOICES



Made ALL major races become "adults" at 15, and max base size at 18. Obviously this is not accurate in D&D terms, but giving dwarves (for instance) ~40 year childhoods doesn't make much sense within the mechanics of the game.
Major races' "max" ages do vary as appropriate, though.

Humans, dwarves, elves, half-elves and half-orcs are all the same size. Stats are what make the difference. In D&D they are all "medium" races, and their armor etc. is interchangeable.
This was also done for the sake of simplicity - size has more of an impact on things like combat power and damage absorption than stats, for the most part, and not in easily quantifiable ways.

Halflings and gnomes are the same size as each other, smaller than the other major races, to represent their "small" status in D&D. Due to the size difference with other races, they will NOT receive physical attribute maluses, as their size will already more than adequately represent "-2 STR"
Halflings will actually receive +200 in CON-type attributes to "even them out" with the Medium races, and gnomes (having a +2 to CON already), will receive +400.

Attributes were based on  the idea that 1pt D&D = 100pts DF. Normal base stat ranges for d&d are 3-18, thus, 300-1800 for DF. 18/xx STR attributes not represented.
Note that, though this results in somewhat lower stats than in vanilla DF, all major Medium humanoids have received a size increase from vanilla, so I think it probably mostly evens out.

EXAMPLE ATTRIBUTE TABLES

HUMAN (ALL ABILITIES)

Code: [Select]

     D&D     DF
------------------|
MIN |  3  |   300 |
AVG | 10  |  1000 |
MAX | 18  |  1800 |
------------------|
DWARF (CONSTITUTION, +2) (TOUGHNESS, WILLPOWER, etc)

Code: [Select]

     D&D     DF
------------------|
MIN |  5  |   500 |
AVG | 12  |  1200 |
MAX | 20  |  2000 |
------------------|
DWARF (CHARISMA, -2) (SOCIAL_AWARENESS, EMPATHY, etc)
     D&D     DF

Code: [Select]

------------------|
MIN |  1  |   100 |
AVG |  7  |   700 |
MAX | 16  |  1600 |
------------------|
----------------------------------

Tried to simplify the humanoid color schema, for realism's sake, and to make it easier to picture what the creature actually looks like.

SKIN COLORS (HUMAN)
IVORY:1:PEACH:1:DARK_PEACH:1:TAUPE_PALE:1:ECRU:1:TAN:1:DARK_TAN:1:PALE_BROWN:1:BROWN:1:DARK BROWN:1

HAIR COLORS (HUMAN)
BLACK:1:CHARCOAL:1:DARK_BROWN:1:BROWN:1:DARK_CHESTNUT:1:CHESTNUT:1:TAUPE_SANDY:1:BRONZE:1:AUBURN:1:COPPER:1:OCHRE:1:CINNAMON:1:GOLDENROD:1:GOLD:1:GOLDEN_YELLOW:1:FLAX:1

EYE COLORS (HUMAN)
IRIS_EYE_DARK_BROWN:1:IRIS_EYE_BROWN:1:IRIS_EYE_LIGHT_BROWN:1:IRIS_EYE_DARK_OLIVE:1:IRIS_EYE_DARK_CHESTNUT:1:IRIS_EYE_DARK_GREEN:1:IRIS_EYE_GREEN:1:IRIS_EYE_FERN_GREEN:1:IRIS_EYE_EMERALD:1:IRIS_EYE_DARK_BLUE:1:IRIS_EYE_MIDNIGHT_BLUE:1:IRIS_EYE_BLUE:1:IRIS_EYE_AZURE:1:IRIS_EYE_LIGHT_BLUE:1

Other major races are generally just truncated versions of the same (e.g. elves have only lighter skin tones and darker hair colors, with green/blue eyes). Half-orcs will be slightly different due to their orcish heritage.


----------------------------------

Obviously D&D attributes don't line up exactly with DF attributes; as such I have had to improvise.
An "average" stat in D&D is between 10-11, with PC ("hero") stats averaging more like 13-14. I have tried to capture this in the ranges below.
Note on shared attributes - if a race has modifiers to both "parent" attributes I simply doubled up the bonus/malus. A bonus and a malus cancel each other out.

Examples:
---

RACE:FAKE_STRONGMANS
+2 STR, +2 CON
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:STRENGTH:500:900:1200:1250:1300:1600:2000] ** not shared, +200
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:ENDURANCE:700:1100:1400:1450:1500:1800:2200] ** shared bonus, +400 total
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:TOUGHNESS:500:900:1200:1250:1300:1600:2000] ** not shared, +200
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:WILLPOWER:500:900:1200:1250:1300:1600:2000] ** not shared, +200

RACE:FAKE_GLASSCANNONS
+2 STR, -2 CON
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:STRENGTH:500:900:1200:1250:1300:1600:2000] ** not shared, +200
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:ENDURANCE:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800] ** shared bonus/malus, +0 total
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:TOUGHNESS:100:500:800:850:900:1200:1600] ** not shared, -200
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:WILLPOWER:100:500:800:850:900:1200:1600] ** not shared, -200

---

List of D&D -> DF matchups:

STRENGTH:
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:STRENGTH:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:ENDURANCE:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]

DEXTERITY:
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:AGILITY:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:KINESTHETIC_SENSE:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:SPATIAL_SENSE:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]

CONSTITUTION:
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:TOUGHNESS:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:ENDURANCE:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:RECUPERATION:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:DISEASE_RESISTANCE:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:WILLPOWER:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]

INTELLIGENCE: *Also affects SKILL_LEARN_RATES (main advantage)
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:ANALYTICAL_ABILITY:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:MEMORY:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:FOCUS:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]

WISDOM
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:DISEASE_RESISTANCE:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:INTUITION:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:PATIENCE:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:WILLPOWER:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]

CHARISMA *Also affects PERSONALITY tags
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:LINGUISTIC_ABILITY:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:EMPATHY:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:SOCIAL_AWARENESS:300:700:1000:1050:1100:1400:1800]

Not used in attribute distribution:
CREATIVITY *reserved for "craftsman" races, like dwarves and gnomes, as it primarily influences quality of goods
MUSICALITY *doesn't actually do anything at all, will probably zero it out just to prevent it from being included in creature descriptions

[Godlysockpuppet]

You do understand that 2000 is the default in stats? If you think giving a dwarf 2000 endurance is good, you've a nasty surprise waiting for you. All those creatures who've not been given defined stats default to 2000, which means in theory a weasel has equal endurance to your dwarves. And that same weasel has better charisma than your dwarves too
So if in D&D, 18 = human average, then in df terms 18 (D&D) = 2000(DF). You might want to reflect that. Also I barely ever notice any effects of these stats unless you increase them by about 250 at a time.
Also memory, focus and linguistic skills are all currently placeholders. They do -nothing- ingame as of yet

[Putnam]

1000 is the default, actually

[Godlysockpuppet]

1000 is the default, actually

Really? I was certain it was 2000! I thought it mentioned that on the wiki.

[Putnam]

2000 is where the "superhuman" cutoff is, in fact.

[Godlysockpuppet]

2000 is where the "superhuman" cutoff is, in fact.

Yep, just googled it. I was taking it from the end number;
[200:700:900:1000:1100:1300:2000] (this is what is default for physical stats, it's something else for mental ones)
What I had in mind was correct, you were taking from what was average
OP guy here you go:
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Attribute

[Putnam]

It's the same for mental stats.

[Godlysockpuppet]

It's the same for mental stats.

Whatever. The advice I've given isn't invalid is what I'm trying to get at
Edit: the wiki also says you're wrong. This is mental's stats default;
[200:800:900:1000:1100:1300:2000]

[Putnam]

Yeah, you're right, it's good advice. You're working in a framework of up to 5000 for stats-at-unit-creation and the stats themselves can technically go up to (IIRC) 2^31-1.

[Godlysockpuppet]

Yeah, you're right, it's good advice. You're working in a framework of up to 5000 for stats-at-unit-creation and the stats themselves can technically go up to (IIRC) 2^31-1.

Well there you have it then