Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[UristMcDwarf]

The biggest advantage to 4e RP- and fluff-wise is that, since the rules and the fluff exist independently, it's simple to change things.  Monsters I already mentioned, but player abilities can be modified too, I read somewhere about a multiclass warrior with an at-will magic missile who house-ruled it was a shuriken, then got some teleport abilities, an ability that created a duplicate, and changed his class to

You can just reskin stuff in 3.5, too.

[Neonivek]

The biggest advantage to 4e RP- and fluff-wise is that, since the rules and the fluff exist independently, it's simple to change things.  Monsters I already mentioned, but player abilities can be modified too, I read somewhere about a multiclass warrior with an at-will magic missile who house-ruled it was a shuriken, then got some teleport abilities, an ability that created a duplicate, and changed his class to

You can just reskin stuff in 3.5, too.

Yes but it is looked down upon in 3.5

[UristMcDwarf]

The biggest advantage to 4e RP- and fluff-wise is that, since the rules and the fluff exist independently, it's simple to change things.  Monsters I already mentioned, but player abilities can be modified too, I read somewhere about a multiclass warrior with an at-will magic missile who house-ruled it was a shuriken, then got some teleport abilities, an ability that created a duplicate, and changed his class to

You can just reskin stuff in 3.5, too.

Yes but it is looked down upon in 3.5

What the Shrek? I've never heard anyone say that before.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

"His shuriken technique is unbeatable! He has never missed."

I came across the idea of using 1st level M-U spells from 1E as class abilities. Like Jump, Spider Climb, Run, Swim, etc. Make Knock so it only works on one door instead of two, lower the range to touch, require lockpicks as a non-consumable material component, casting time 1 turn, to make it a 1st level Pick Lock spell. Same sorta deal with Find Traps.

Then it's easy to make classes that do crazy stuff and everyone uses the same rules. Basically you've got people who fight well, "cast" from a short list of 1st level M-U spells as a 1st level M-U but at will. And true spellcasters who fight poorly, cast from the full list, and get better at casting, but it's limited-use per day.

Because the nature of the spells was kinda over the top (Jump makes you jump really far) it suits a Flying Dragon Kick kinda game better than a Tolkienesque fantasy game.

[catoblepas]

The biggest advantage to 4e RP- and fluff-wise is that, since the rules and the fluff exist independently, it's simple to change things.  Monsters I already mentioned, but player abilities can be modified too, I read somewhere about a multiclass warrior with an at-will magic missile who house-ruled it was a shuriken, then got some teleport abilities, an ability that created a duplicate, and changed his class to

You can just reskin stuff in 3.5, too.

Yeah, 3.5 is *increadibly* flexible, you really don't even need to 'reskin' things to make a concept work either. There are rules available for making just about every conceivable concept. I think 3.5 is really powerful in that regard.

[Cthulhu]

You don't need rules for it in 4e

/sunglasses

Anyway it makes less sense because of the way 3e deals with magic. You can only bring a limited number of shurikens, they are impossible to collect after you throw them, and every shuriken you bring is a shadow clone you can't jutsu.

[Neonivek]

The biggest advantage to 4e RP- and fluff-wise is that, since the rules and the fluff exist independently, it's simple to change things.  Monsters I already mentioned, but player abilities can be modified too, I read somewhere about a multiclass warrior with an at-will magic missile who house-ruled it was a shuriken, then got some teleport abilities, an ability that created a duplicate, and changed his class to

You can just reskin stuff in 3.5, too.

Yeah, 3.5 is *increadibly* flexible, you really don't even need to 'reskin' things to make a concept work either. There are rules available for making just about every conceivable concept. I think 3.5 is really powerful in that regard.

Ok my sarcasm detectors aren't working.

[catoblepas]

You don't need rules for it in 4e

/sunglasses

Anyway it makes less sense because of the way 3e deals with magic. You can only bring a limited number of shurikens, they are impossible to collect after you throw them, and every shuriken you bring is a shadow clone you can't jutsu.

Makes it a heck of a lot easier than having to homerule every other situation because it isn't accounted for in the rules set.

And yes, there are rules for collecting thrown weapons and ammunition after using them in 3.5.

[ndkid]

D&D has strayed from the roleplaying route for a while now. If you want roleplaying, there are better systems, like FATE. D&D is well... like a combat based board game.

You say "strayed" like there was a time when D&D was really into roleplaying. It was originally derived from a miniatures combat rule set. It maintained a fixation on combat (with puzzle-solving occasionally being a secondary concern) throughout editions. I suppose you could say the alignment system was a passing attempt at some roleplaying, but compared to any number of systems that came after it, from Pallidium's games to WoD to the generics like GURPS and HERO, roleplaying was always weak in D&D.

Back to the OP: the "simplified" is the big part. D&D has historically been a pretty crunchy tactical combat game; 4th ed makes it somewhat less crunchy.

[Cthulhu]

And yes, there are rules for collecting thrown weapons and ammunition after using them in 3.5.

I know, that's not what I was talking about.  The vancian magic shit in 3.5 means if you were to say "my magic missile is a shuriken" you would need to figure out why you can only prepare a limited number of shurikens each day, can't collect more on your adventure, can't recover them, and every shuriken you take it a shadow clone you can't jutsu.

Since magic missile is an at-will in 4e you can houserule it to be a shuriken no big deal.

And what ndkid said.  D&D has never really been about serious hardcore RP.  There have always been much better systems for serious RP.  D&D's about a robust combat system, and if that's the metric we're going by 4e is a hundred times better (though often a little bland I'll admit.  The price of reversing Wizards&Clerics edition was making everybody a little samey)

[Sensei]

Since magic missile is an at-will in 4e you can houserule it to be a shuriken no big deal.

That's... a pretty good sign things are too damn samey. As a fan of crunchy combat, I feel like the choice between casting magic missile and throwing a shuriken should mean something.

[catoblepas]

And yes, there are rules for collecting thrown weapons and ammunition after using them in 3.5.

I know, that's not what I was talking about.  The vancian magic shit in 3.5 means if you were to say "my magic missile is a shuriken" you would need to figure out why you can only prepare a limited number of shurikens each day, can't collect more on your adventure, can't recover them, and every shuriken you take it a shadow clone you can't jutsu.

Since magic missile is an at-will in 4e you can houserule it to be a shuriken no big deal.

And what ndkid said.  D&D has never really been about serious hardcore RP.  There have always been much better systems for serious RP.  D&D's about a robust combat system, and if that's the metric we're going by 4e is a hundred times better (though often a little bland I'll admit.  The price of reversing Wizards&Clerics edition was making everybody a little samey)

I'm not sure where you are coming from if having shurikens and magic missiles act the same thing makes for more of a 'robust combat system'. It sounds like more of a simplified one, if you ask me.


I'm sorry but having things as completely different as magic missile and a shuriken being interchangeable just doesn't seem like something I'd consider as a plus in the column of 4.0.


As for the Vancian magic system, I think that having to manage your spell usage is a great idea. I like the 3.5 system.

[Urist McSpike]

D&D has strayed from the roleplaying route for a while now. If you want roleplaying, there are better systems, like FATE. D&D is well... like a combat based board game.

You say "strayed" like there was a time when D&D was really into roleplaying. It was originally derived from a miniatures combat rule set. It maintained a fixation on combat (with puzzle-solving occasionally being a secondary concern) throughout editions. I suppose you could say the alignment system was a passing attempt at some roleplaying, but compared to any number of systems that came after it, from Pallidium's games to WoD to the generics like GURPS and HERO, roleplaying was always weak in D&D.

Actually...   
Braunstein

[Cthulhu]

If anything that just confirms what he was saying.  The combat rules of D&D were derived from a miniatures wargame, and the roleplaying was roleplaying.  As is proper.

I'm not sure where you are coming from if having shurikens and magic missiles act the same thing makes for more of a 'robust combat system'. It sounds like more of a simplified one, if you ask me.

I'm sorry but having things as completely different as magic missile and a shuriken being interchangeable just doesn't seem like something I'd consider as a plus in the column of 4.0.

The first thing, you're kind of mixing two different messages.  Easy reflavoring isn't what makes D&D a robust combat system, the robust combat system is.

And was there ever really a difference?  When you get down to brass tacks, even in 3.5e the difference is only in your imagination.  Without the fluff, they're both "roll 1d4+x and subtract that number from the enemy's HP."

This is all beside the point.  4e is great for over the top heroic fantasy where the heroes are larger than life.  3.5e would be great for more realistic lower-fantasy games where PCs are special but they can definitely die.  Except when real men want to play that kind of D&D they play 2e.

[Grakelin]

I have to counterpoint Neonivek.

There are a ton of RPG systtems out there that are both "gamey" and more versatile than D&D. If you don't know about them, that's a problem with marketing, not a problem with the systems. I agree that tossing FATE around all the time is kind of silly, but D&D AnyE is hardly the be-all end-all of gaming.