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Author Topic: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?  (Read 4572 times)

CognitiveDissonance

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2013, 05:30:24 pm »

Alignment is training wheels for kiddy-level roleplaying and is the surest way to completely dumb down a story or a character.  Ditch it.  Play a multi-hued character, don't emulate a crayon color.

DM styles definitely differ

:)
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Werdna

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2013, 05:46:44 pm »

Haha, too true... :)  But I think we are closer to agreement than it appears:

May I strongly suggest otherwise? DM styles definitely differ, but I find that players find experiential play unforgettable. For a brand new player and new character, yeah, just good ol' eraser is good enough. But for anything else, make the alignment change a part of the game! Give them external reaction, demonic interactions, world responses and inner turmoil or disgust or conflict. They'll remember it for a long time to come.

Why not follow this to its logical conclusion and ditch alignment entirely.  You've already (correctly, IMHO) argued against trying to come to an external agreement on what alignment is, and instead replace it with actual consequence-based roleplay and character development.  Awesome.  So why have alignment to begin with?  What does it really add?  Why should a paladin have to adhere to a concept as bland as "Lawful Good", and not to the fanatical values of their particular religious sect?  Which one of these is potentially more story-based? 
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CognitiveDissonance

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2013, 05:50:55 pm »

Haha, too true... :)  But I think we are closer to agreement than it appears:

May I strongly suggest otherwise? DM styles definitely differ, but I find that players find experiential play unforgettable. For a brand new player and new character, yeah, just good ol' eraser is good enough. But for anything else, make the alignment change a part of the game! Give them external reaction, demonic interactions, world responses and inner turmoil or disgust or conflict. They'll remember it for a long time to come.

Why not follow this to its logical conclusion and ditch alignment entirely.  You've already (correctly, IMHO) argued against trying to come to an external agreement on what alignment is, and instead replace it with actual consequence-based roleplay and character development.  Awesome.  So why have alignment to begin with?  What does it really add?  Why should a paladin have to adhere to a concept as bland as "Lawful Good", and not to the fanatical values of their particular religious sect?  Which one of these is potentially more story-based?

I don't want to derail the thread too much, but sure I'll bite. Alignments are like classes - arbitrary ways to set up a character. Why can't a Ranger learn sneak attacks? Why is a warrior bad at sneaking by default? Why can't my barbarian know a water cantrip without multiclassing? They are frameworks for a character. It also helps players have a good sense for how their character would react in different situations, and sets them on a path to developing a deeper personality. What you're arguing against, I think, is restrictive play; alignments should never be restrictive, but rather a tool to expand roleplay upon. With finesse, alignments are a wonderful tool further augmented by relevant spells (Protection from Evil, Detect Aura, Scry, Detect Magic...)

EDIT: Also, I have experienced unstructured roleplay as both the player and the DM. In my experience, it ends up in either "no-fun" land or "bad fanfic style" land. I dislike them equally.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 05:55:49 pm by CognitiveDissonance »
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Werdna

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2013, 06:30:00 pm »

My argument would be to purely use story, motivation, and character background as frameworks to expand roleplay and personality from.  I've simply never seen alignment lead to deeper personality, just a lot of time wasted arguing silly interpretations.  I see what you hope to accomplish with it - alignment being the point upon which a personality crystallizes around, and I can see good players making that work (although more diversity would arise by substituting character background & story instead).  However, would you really want your favorite authors building their characters in their books by basing them on the nine alignments?  Then why should your characters?  I can't really argue with the dependent mechanics (Detect Evil, etc), only to say that it takes only a little extra imagination and time to work within their framework.

It is my D&D experience that alignment instead acts as a convenient cage that most players try to fit their personality into.  We've all heard "My character wouldn't do that, he's Something Something" and its the sound of a prisoner rattling his cup against the imagination bars.  Alignment-less roleplay does not mean unstructured roleplay.  There are still consequences for actions, there's just far more room for nuance and interpretation, just like in the real world.

Anyway, if folks find alignment an enjoyable mechanic - by all means, indulge.  If not, abstain.  RPG's are best when you take a good look at the mechanics and house-rule your way to more pleasure.  Peace and gg's.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 06:31:37 pm by Werdna »
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ndkid

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2013, 10:38:21 pm »

Personally, I think you're all scoping the problem wrong. Don't ditch alignment; if you really want to ditch the training wheels, ditch D&D, and go for a game that encourages role-play more than roll-play. :-P
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Not good with names

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2013, 12:35:34 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.
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CognitiveDissonance

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2013, 01:08:54 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

This has spawned an excellent discussion between me and my girlfriend regarding Zapp Brannigan's alignment. She figures it's Lawful Evil :D
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Tres_Huevos

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2013, 02:05:10 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

This has spawned an excellent discussion between me and my girlfriend regarding Zapp Brannigan's alignment. She figures it's Lawful Evil :D
I always figured his alignment was Chaotic Stupid.
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Xantalos

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2013, 02:14:21 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

This has spawned an excellent discussion between me and my girlfriend regarding Zapp Brannigan's alignment. She figures it's Lawful Evil :D
I always figured his alignment was Chaotic Stupid.
No, his alignment is Zapp Brannigan.
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GobbieMarauder

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2013, 07:57:45 am »

The thing I feel the need to point out is that evil and Evil are two different things in DnD. "Good," "Evil," "Chaos," and 'Law" are not objective moralistic determinations, they're actual, tangible universal forces. A wizard can open a portal to the Law dimension and get a brick of Law, and a cleric can tell you exactly how Evil any action is, because Evil is a measurable form of energy. A paladin using Detect Evil is not someone making moral judgements, they're magically determining how much Evil energy is inside people.

While a lot of it is directly related to moral choice, there are a handful of things that out-and-out alignment-based. The classic example is someone who uses mindless undead run farms and do hard labor, so the people don't have to suffer and starve. This action may be good, but it is definitely Evil, because necromancy uses negative energy, which is tied to Evil. So even if they're a morally upright person, they still can't get the patronage of a Good god, and they still have the Evil alignment.

Summoning a demon is a distinctly Chaotic Evil act, because demons are beings literally made of Chaos and Evil, and technically is grounds for an immediate alignment shift. It doesn't matter WHY they did it, because it's like rolling in mud and thinking you won't get muddy.

That said, there are other considerations. Firstly, an alignment shift doesn't automatically mean a shift in personality. It can, of course, but it can also be that the Lawful Good person will simply continue to act Lawful Good, and their actions will generate enough Good and Law to eventually counteract the Chaos and Evil inside them, at which point they will shift to True Neutral, and then back to Lawful Good. Alignment doesn't mean a lot unless they're a class that's alignment-dependent (like a Paladin or Monk), then they would lose their class powers until their alignment returned to normal, either via the way I mentioned, or by appealing to their deity or patron concept (Depending on your version, Paladins can be servants of a god, or a greater ideal, so a paladin could appease the greater concept of Good for forgiveness).

Secondly, inadvertent consequences don't count. In order for an action to affect your alignment, you have to understand, to some degree, what you're doing and what it will do. So summoning a demon on purpose of Chaotic Evil, regardless of why you do it, because you're still knowingly bringing an agent of Chaos and Evil into the world, but, say, smashing a magic rune without knowing that it's binding a demon is (reckless and stupid) not Chaotic Evil, because you're not knowingly and willingly serving the cause of Chaos and Evil. It's the same reason animals don't have an alignment - They lack the level of higher thought to understand their actions on a moralistic level.

Of course, as others have said, you're the DM, and you can take or leave all this as you see fit. It's your game, so as long as you're fair with your players and keep things consistent, do whatever.

tl;dr Good and Evil are tangible forces capable of directly manipulating the world, and they only care about what you did, not why you did it.
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cerapa

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2013, 08:06:26 am »

Erm...

So Good and Evil are not moralistic determinations but actual forces? But animals don't have alignments because they do not make moralistic determinations.
And Good and Evil care about what you did, but not why you did it? But serving Evil unknowingly and unwillingly does not make you Evil.
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scrdest

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2013, 08:08:52 am »

Possible experiment: allow your players to pick the alignment at character creation but from then on conceal it from them and track it yourself.

If they commit an act that strays from the initial alignment, use alignment points like the NWN system mentioned before and make it have subtle effects: a person who committed an evil act, yet is not Whatever Evil shows up very faintly on Detect Evil, Paladins' powers become slightly weaker, etc.

If they roleplay it so that they acknowledge the act as being unusual for them (remorse, confessing to it to an NPC not involved, confusion (for Evil->Good or Chaotic->Lawful), and the like), they can mitigate, if not nullify, the effect.


FAKEDIT: GobbieMarauder is making a good point: technically, vanilla DnD Evil needs not be evil. Evil is, broadly speaking, a form of energy associated with beings that are both Evil and evil. It's a decent handwave, although it is rather constraining on the psychological realism of the characters.
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GobbieMarauder

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2013, 08:16:09 am »

Erm...

So Good and Evil are not moralistic determinations but actual forces? But animals don't have alignments because they do not make moralistic determinations.
And Good and Evil care about what you did, but not why you did it? But serving Evil unknowingly and unwillingly does not make you Evil.

I guess a better term would be "objective moralistic determinations which aren't made by mortals."

The easiest way to think of it is as if the universe asked "What are you doing?" every time you did something, then based your morality on that. An animal will always say "Eating, sleeping, breeding." Those aren't Evil actions, so even if they're eating a baby, they aren't Evil.

If you say "I'm summoning a demon," well, summoning a demon is Chaotic Evil. "Breaking a magic rune" isn't Chaotic Evil, but "breaking a magic rune to free a demon" is. To reuse my other example, "Raising the dead" is Evil, because the universe never asked if you're doing it for a good reason.

FAKEDIT: GobbieMarauder is making a good point: technically, vanilla DnD Evil needs not be evil. Evil is, broadly speaking, a form of energy associated with beings that are both Evil and evil. It's a decent handwave, although it is rather constraining on the psychological realism of the characters.

DnD is definitely not a system for playing morally complex individuals, it's a system for being Big Damn Heroes.
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Girlinhat

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2013, 08:37:39 am »

(Didn't read the whole thread)

Alignment generally works poorly.  The only place that I actually enforce alignment is with clerics, paladins, and related.  For instance, a Paladin must be Lawful Good, and Barbarians must be Chaotic Any.  This means that under no circumstances can your priest worship the savage warfare of brutal and pure combat.  It also means you can't have a Jekyll/Hyde situation where your Lawful Good acting-as-a-priest goes into uncontrollable rage when threatened...

In general, I ignore alignment.  I treat it more as 'reputation' and treat spells like Detect Alignment or Protection From Alignment to ONLY work on deity-type scenarios.  You can ward yourself against the undead, but not against a Fighter with bad intentions.

If you do need to address true alignment for things like clerics, then you probably want to keep a T-Chart.  On the left side write their good deeds.  On the right side, make extra room because once you start keeping track you realize that nearly every player is evil.  Give them a holy shrine in the woods with a statue holding a jewel, watch everyone turn evil...

Coincidentally, if you put a curse on it, then whoever stole the gem can have some karmic justice delivered, preferably when the GM doesn't tell them they're under a curse until they slowly realize things aren't going great.

Sensei

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2013, 09:43:30 am »

Since the only place alignment really comes up in the rules is where divine spells are cast, I like to change spells that work against evil, like Smite Evil, to "Smite Infidels" or "Smite enemies of <Insert God>". Likewise, Detect Evil could be "Detect enemies of <god>" or "Detect Malice (Towards the Caster)". This pretty much frees the alignment restrictions on roleplaying while still leaving a rubric for who is and isn't a valid target for spells that refer to alignments, and has the bonus of not having to say that your character is a cackling evil saturday morning cartoon villain if you want to work with stuff that's "evil" in the default book. If you do want to enforce alignment, make gods more involved in the setting.
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