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Author Topic: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?  (Read 4464 times)

UristMcDwarf

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How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« on: September 05, 2013, 01:24:28 pm »

How many summoned demons does it take to go from neutral to neutral evil?
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Simmura McCrea

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2013, 01:26:35 pm »

However many the DM says it does.
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UristMcDwarf

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2013, 01:34:01 pm »

However many the DM says it does.

But I'm the DM...
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2013, 01:43:29 pm »

You, as the DM, could give someone an alignment hit for simply thinking of considering summoning a demon.

Quote
In most D&D games, the game runs smoothest when the player characters are of good or neutral alignment. Some games or DMs even enforce alignment restrictions, to avoid internal strife or grudges around the table. Regardless, the great majority of high level summons are evil, and not your garden-variety evil either. The 9th level summoning table is replete with fiends galore, while any would-be good summoner would have to contend with a celestial roc or a leonal (which, while badass, does not really make for many options). Unless your devout cleric of Lathandar has a proper justification for unleashing hellspawn upon the enemy hordes, this is a problem.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 01:48:47 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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timferius

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2013, 01:54:20 pm »

I think it depends. Was it a Good Character? Why did he summon the demons? Did he care? Did he feel awful about it but had to?
Basically, by doing this, is the character really still defined by their allignment? A Lawful Good character summoning demons willy-nilly isn't Lawful Good. If his King tells him to do whatever it takes to save the kingdom, and there's no other choice? I'd allow it personally.
If a character wants to break allignment, that's cool, but make them RP it and justify it. In the case of no remorse breaking alignment I'd give the person a choice. Either A) You can't do that or B) your allighment shifts.

Also, particularly with religious characters, this opens a great hook for a sidequest to redeem himself, both in his own eyes and in his gods. If a Paladin feels it's the only way to save the kingdom, that's great, but he should still feel soiled, and seek repentence.
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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2013, 01:55:19 pm »

All comes down to context. Just summoning a fiend and letting it go hog wild on a bunch of baddies and releasing it onto the planes is a pretty horrific act and is likely out of character for any neutral. Summoning a demon while having complete power over it and using it only in dire circumstances while making sure to unsummon it correctly wouldn't necessarily lean towards evil.

Summoning a fiend and binding it to syphon power to advance in a quest or something would be a neutral act slightly leaning towards evil. Summoning a devil, binding it and carrying out its demands to gain power would be evil. Summoning a devil, binding it and then offering self sacrifices would be an act perhaps leaning towards lawful. 

As a DM it's not really about numbers and sliders but rather what you think is in character and whether the actions are justified. Take note of how the fiend is being summoned and whether it is being properly controlled and unsummoned.
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Neonivek

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2013, 02:02:58 pm »

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All comes down to context

Which is really where the problems sort of start.

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How many summoned demons does it take to go from neutral to neutral evil?

This STRONGLY depends on both you and the setting. Whether or not summoning demons is considered an inherent evil.

The major issue with Dungeons and dragons is how Secular versus Medieval Philosophy you are.
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Leonon

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2013, 03:30:47 pm »

Unless you're doing the Planescape "Evil/Neutral/Good/Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic are all fundamental elements of the universe" thing then you don't have to worry too much about alignment. If you are doing it Planescape style one option is to have things out of alignment just not work or have characters get physically discomforted or sick from doing something out of alignment. A good character doing an evil deed could be the same as a fire genasai jumping into a cold lake. Not necessarily harmful, but certainly not pleasant.

Neverwinter Nights has an interesting method of alignment change where good/evil and law/chaos are given a score between 0 and 100 and each action moves the slider a little. This makes it easy to reduce any action to a number and let math determine a character's alignment change. A True Neutral (50,50) would become Neutral Evil (50,30) after doing 20 points worth of evil things. This calculates to 4 murders of innocent civilians or kicking approximately 5.6 puppies.

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Cthulhu

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2013, 04:29:25 pm »

Alignment is dumb anyway.

I think of the Good/Evil axis as Selfless/Selfish instead.  A good character, as a rule, will put the well-being of other characters before himself and his goals.  An evil character will cause harm to characters who don't deserve it to advance his goals.

So if a good character and a neutral character are chasing an evil character through the town, the evil would be in-character to grab an old woman and throw her into the heroes' path to slow them down, or stab someone, or otherwise cause a disturbance.  The good character would generally feel the need to stop and help the innocent, even if it means the villain gets away.  The neutral character could do a number of things depending on the nature of his neutrality (If he's practical, he might keep up the chase, if he's a waffler he might delay, or do either.)

Summoning a demon doesn't make you evil, but depending on how you do it it might reflect an evil temperament.  I wouldn't say to someone's Good wizard, "Okay, you're now evil" for summoning a demon.  But if his behavior in summoning the demon doesn't reflect his alignment, I might suggest he retroactively change his alignment to reflect his character's actual temperament.  He isn't changing, we're just correcting our records.
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Neonivek

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2013, 04:41:28 pm »

Quote
But if his behavior in summoning the demon doesn't reflect his alignment, I might suggest he retroactively change his alignment to reflect his character's actual temperament.

Ok, good advice but let me add some steps between "Noticing a pattern" and "Changing alignment"

1) Ask him what he is doing
2) If the answer is "evil" warn him that if he continues down this path he will be taking the first few steps towards an alignment change.
3) Wait a few more times and ask when needed.

The #1 reason you want to do these steps is because when you change someone's alignment you are saying to them "You don't know how to play your character".

*Edit: I erased what I wrote here because it wouldn't help the TC*

Here are some alignment tips:
1) Neutral actions do not dent alignment: Yes it is a bit heavy handed for the Lawful Good paragon to try to negotiate for more pay, but it isn't "Evil" nor is it not "Good".
2) Good isn't Super Goody and Evil isn't Cartoonishly evil
3) STATE your interpretation of alignment: If you have disagreements about alignment... State them, write them down and pass them as a handout. If the players KNOW how "You" are handling alignment then there is no issue.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 04:50:53 pm by Neonivek »
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Aoi

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2013, 05:13:18 pm »

Like what other people have said, it depends a lot on whether or not your world views alignment as an intrinsic or extrinsic quality.

If there's an external set of rules, like what the Almighty Bob has decreed, then you have an external, hopefully(?) objective judge to decide on what things are good and evil.
If it's a personal thing where alignment is more of an personality descriptor and not an actual force in the world... yeah, Neonivek's got it dead on. Or they need to come up with better internal justifications.

1) Neutral actions do not dent alignment: Yes it is a bit heavy handed for the Lawful Good paragon to try to negotiate for more pay, but it isn't "Evil" nor is it not "Good".
2) Good isn't Super Goody and Evil isn't Cartoonishly evil

Heh. I knew one guy who loved playing with the concept of alignment. He'd routinely play lawful good and yet be the biggest jerk possible... all while perfectly adhering to what is good and lawful.

I recall one bit out of a manual that tried to explain the alignments and said something along the lines of "Characters who are chaotic may be unpredictable, but that unpredictability has limits. They'd be much more likely to cross a random bridge they came across than jumping off of it."
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CognitiveDissonance

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2013, 05:13:46 pm »

As a DM, here's how I would approach this:

- Attitude is important. A great Good archmage summoning a demon to save a country is justifiable enough. If it's an exception for a significant reason, then it's just that - an exception. Sometimes, the ends justify the means (NPC organizations may disagree)

- Roleplay and remorse. A well-roleplayed good character would feel severe repulsion from the demon, disgust at their actions, and deep remorse afterwards. Lack of all of those hints at a necessary alignment shift.

- DM tools. The demon is bound, but by an inappropriate summoner. Maybe the summoning fails, or the demon turns side, or the demon is weakened and disjoints realities easily (See: Mordekaiden's Disjunction). If the "good" character persists, inform them that their control over the spell and the summoned demon grows. That the demon likes them more, the spell is easier to cast, and the creature is more powerful. If they are happy with this, it's time to review alignment

- NPC's. Any companion NPC's should notice the moral incompatibility and comment accordingly. World NPC's may comment on a newfound aura of evil, other mages will comment on lingering demonic spell traces and so on. Have the world respond accordingly, and judge the necessary changes by the player's reactions.


EDIT: Annendum, I am a big fan of corruption concepts as introduced by Warhammer (both) and Warcraft universes. The concept being that certain actions leave a lingering trace on your essence, and it's up to the individual's willpower/personality/conviction to either protect against them or embrace them. If defending, such defenses can fail when the pressure increases.

EDIT2: Read the OP more carefully, "neutral to evil". Neutral alignment is a complex concept, and TECHNICALLY shouldn't be intrinsically affected by summoning demons. If you like them, apply my personality/response/corruption concepts as appropriate.

I would.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 05:18:30 pm by CognitiveDissonance »
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Cthulhu

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2013, 05:17:02 pm »

I guess it depends on how he does it.  If he's a well established character then it'd probably be more appropriate to do like you said and suggest he's going down a path.  That opens up a lot of opportunity for interesting roleplaying.

If he's just started though, he might still be getting a feel for his character.  I don't think it would be insulting to suggest a different alignment might better match him.  I'm not saying "you don't know how to play your character," I'm saying "your character sheet doesn't quite reflect the way you want to play your character, maybe we should adjust it."

3) STATE your interpretation of alignment: If you have disagreements about alignment... State them, write them down and pass them as a handout. If the players KNOW how "You" are handling alignment then there is no issue.

This is a good idea
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CognitiveDissonance

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2013, 05:20:37 pm »

I guess it depends on how he does it.  If he's a well established character then it'd probably be more appropriate to do like you said and suggest he's going down a path.  That opens up a lot of opportunity for interesting roleplaying.

If he's just started though, he might still be getting a feel for his character.  I don't think it would be insulting to suggest a different alignment might better match him.  I'm not saying "you don't know how to play your character," I'm saying "your character sheet doesn't quite reflect the way you want to play your character, maybe we should adjust it."

3) STATE your interpretation of alignment: If you have disagreements about alignment... State them, write them down and pass them as a handout. If the players KNOW how "You" are handling alignment then there is no issue.

This is a good idea

May I strongly suggest otherwise? DM styles definitely differ, but I find that players find experiential play unforgettable. For a brand new player and new character, yeah, just good ol' eraser is good enough. But for anything else, make the alignment change a part of the game! Give them external reaction, demonic interactions, world responses and inner turmoil or disgust or conflict. They'll remember it for a long time to come.
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Werdna

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Re: How does Dungeons and Dragons alignment work?
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2013, 05:27:32 pm »

Alignment is training wheels for kiddy-level roleplaying and is the surest way to completely dumb down a story or a character.  Ditch it.  Play a multi-hued character, don't emulate a crayon color.
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