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[alway]

Not to mention the fact that Gaza is basically a gigantic crowded ghetto, so you'd be hard pressed to find an area for Hamas to fire rockets from that isn't full of civilians.

Yep; population density in the Gaza Strip is comparable to that of Chicago.

[Leafsnail]

It's not even "they're firing from within a school", it's "they're firing from within the general vicinity of a school".  That is a pretty shitty thing to do, but it does not remotely justify blowing up the school that is being used as a shelter by civilians (not least because by the time the IDF have responded the rocket launcher is probably long gone).  Even the US state department has come round on this point.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/03/us-appalled-disgraceful-israeli-shelling-gaza-un-school

[Frumple]

Also, I've never really understood the logic of "They're shooting rockets from a hospital/school (that are hilariously ineffective at doing any serious damage, by the way), so obviously if we give a warning we're totally in the clear to demolish the entire area with carpet bombing!".

I never did get an explanation for that line of reasoning in the egypt etc. thread. It's apparently something israeli propaganda is stating as gospel -- that giving warning somehow absolves all potential blame -- but it'd be nice to know why. Some sort of legal precedent in international courts or something? It's incredibly obvious it's not a moral argument, so it must be some sort of legal one, I'd think.

[MonkeyHead]

Even so, giving a UN site a warning it is going to be attacked is still some top grade dumbfuckery, if indeed the 2 UN sites hit were even warned.

[Duuvian]

Are there any UN member nation's troops guarding the UN facilities? If there were, perhaps they could 'encourage' any Hamas militants firing rockets or mortars within a block (or two) of the UN facility to leave. In return the IDF would not feel the need to shoot artillery at the UN facilities. Perhaps this is something Russia and the US could work together on.

[smjjames]

Also, they reportedly found some weapons stockpiled in an unused facility of theirs, so, they need to do a better job of keeping the militants from even using the area.

[Frumple]

Even so, giving a UN site a warning it is going to be attacked is still some top grade dumbfuckery, if indeed the 2 UN sites hit were even warned.

Well, yes, but if you're expecting anything but moral bankruptcy from either side of the conflict at this point, I'd wager you're not really paying attention, bleh. IDF's pretty strongly (re?)confirmed themselves scum tier (because regardless of what they say, what they've done paints an incredibly clear picture), and Hamas came into this on that level, so... dumbfuckery is to be expected. Decried, sure, but it seems to be the base state of the conflict.

I'm more curious* about legal ramifications and whatnot -- whether Israel is actually going to bite war crimes or squeak by with legally clear atrocity mongering. Hamas, being a terrorist organization, pretty much doesn't give a damn about that sort of thing (so far as I'm aware, anyway), but if our Israeli posters have been anything to go by Israel seems to think (or, at least, say) it's at a higher standard than, y'know, Hamas. Ostensibly, anyway. The death toll speaks otherwise, but eh.

*The only curiosity I have remaining regarding the ethical nature of the involved is morbid, largely in regards to what further depths will be sunk

[Mr. Strange]

Israelis demolish Palestinian homes in Palestinian territory and build their own on top of them.  The IDF then protects them from attempts by Palestinians to reclaim their land.  It's pure ethnic cleansing and even the biggest pro-Israel shills have no arguments as to why it's justified.

e: I should point out this happens in the West Bank, not Gaza.  The Palestinians who have been trying to negotiate peacefully with Israel are rewarded by having their homes demolished and their land stolen.

This is the "live and let live" policy of Israel, since they are not shot right away. Never mind how many die without shelter, food, water or any posessions they might have lost, they'll be in overcrowded ghettoes like palestinians in Gaza soon anyway, so Israel can show it's humanitarian side by sharing them some of the international humanitarian aid sent to them. That's untill palestinians in West Bank get fed up and start to form Hamas-like groups to fight back... But hey, that just proves how much they wanted to destroy Israel all along and how it wasn't possible to negotiate peace with them!

[Leafsnail]

Even so, giving a UN site a warning it is going to be attacked is still some top grade dumbfuckery, if indeed the 2 UN sites hit were even warned.

One of them was warned, but it was given no actual chance to evacuate.  What good does a warning do if there's fighting all around the warned location and no actual possible safe area for them to go to?

Are there any UN member nation's troops guarding the UN facilities? If there were, perhaps they could 'encourage' any Hamas militants firing rockets or mortars within a block (or two) of the UN facility to leave. In return the IDF would not feel the need to shoot artillery at the UN facilities. Perhaps this is something Russia and the US could work together on.

There are a couple of guards in them to protect the facility itself, but the idea that they should police the surrounding area is bizarre and not really workable.  They aren't IDF troops, why should they join in the conflict on Israel's side like that?  Isn't that a far bigger breach of neutrality?

Also, they reportedly found some weapons stockpiled in an unused facility of theirs, so, they need to do a better job of keeping the militants from even using the area.

I don't see how they can be expected to guard an area they've been told to evacuate without putting themselves in danger?

[scriver]

Ah, right, so the settlement stuff isn't happening in Gaza?

And what LS said, if something's happening in the general area of a building, you don't attack the building.

'Hey, a criminal was shooting near an orphanage!'
'OK, blow up the orphanage.'

I'm not saying it justifies it or anything, but you're missing the key piece of red thought-thread here in which IDF knows or assumes that that orphanage is where the shooter is based from.

[Wolfhunter107]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28857012
...

[Wolfhunter107]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29423784

[10ebbor10]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/14/turkish-jets-bombard-kurdish-positions-pkk

[Zangi]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29423784

I'll be unsurprised if it turns out both sides have been committing war crimes.

I think it is established fact that Hamas and at least a few of the other Palastinian militia organizations not under Hamas has committed war crimes, either past or present.  I'm pretty sure non-Hamas group actions get pegged on Hamas anyways.
Would not be surprised if Israel gets pegged.  Would not be surprised if friends of Israel succeeds in helping em weasel out of it.

[burningpet]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/14/turkish-jets-bombard-kurdish-positions-pkk

Now if you want to talk about an actual ethnic group with an extremely justified claim for a state, its the kurds. if you want to talk about an actual apartheid state that actually committed war crimes and a genocide, its Turkey.