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[Grimlocke]

They say a picture says a thousand words, so have a picture with words!


Ahem so yeah, I was running some arena tests on my weapon rebalacing mod. This I did with a human-creature-copy, with all the variable atributes removed, and with a second caste that automaticaly passes out and does not die from blood loss.

Eventualy I had a weapon that was woefully unable to penetrate body and head armor (removing the limbs actualy went just fine). Now, noses actualy somehow stick out of helmets, and can be mutilated through any kind of armor, so I decided to make a point of lopping it off before switching out of adventurer mode.

Once back in regular arena mode my test subject started producing this endless stream of weird, purple bodyparts flying everywhere. Looked into the combat logs, and found well... see above. There was actualy only one nose lying around there. The rest just because weird 'partial remains'.

Its not realy a problem I need help with, just thought it would be a funny thing to share 

[BlackFlyme]

Odd... Aren't generic "remains" usually reserved for dead vermin?

And it's been known for a while now that helmets and other head items, with the exception of most jewelry (which don't provide any protection at all), don't cover facial features. Which is hilarious, as body armour with [UBSTEP] set high enough (I think it's at least 4), can actually protect your facial features, fingers, and even toes.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

So only UPSTEP on body armor will do this? will this work on helmets? gloves? boots? But on other parts doesn't UPSTEP mean "towards upperbody" so would LBSTEP make it go to say toes, facial features, or fingers? or would it simply crawl up to the lowerbody?

[Knight Otu]

I've encountered this before, with gleeoks in the old Legend of Zelda mod, but I never managed to reliably duplicate it.

[BlackFlyme]

So only UPSTEP on body armor will do this? will this work on helmets? gloves? boots? But on other parts doesn't UPSTEP mean "towards upperbody" so would LBSTEP make it go to say toes, facial features, or fingers? or would it simply crawl up to the lowerbody?

UBSTEP and UPSTEP are two different tokens, and unfortunately, UBSTEP is only for body armour. It stands for Upper Body Steps, which is how many steps away from the Upper Body it protects. It won't work on gloves, helms, leg armour, or boots, to my knowledge. Then again, I haven't tested this, and the wiki has been wrong before. UPSTEP and LBSTEP always stop at the upper and lower body, respectively, and are incapable of protecting fingers and toes.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Armor_token

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

so then why does:

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_GLOVES:ITEM_GLOVES_GAUNTLETS]
[NAME:gauntlet:gauntlets]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[UPSTEP:1]
[SHAPED]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:20]
[LAYER_PERMIT:15]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
[SCALED]
[BARRED]
[METAL]
[HARD]
have UPSTEP in vanilla? even shields have it? Either Toady wasn't thinking when he made armor items or it does something.

[Mr S]

I believe that may have been a typo from BlackFlyme.  In this example, IIRC, greaves protect the hand as well as the forearm (UPSTEP:1 from the HAND).  But the UBSTEP from HAND, it does nothing.

That said, handwear and footwear still do nothing to protect fingers or toes.  Whether this is a matter of how the game mechanic handles how the bodyplans are built, or some other coding artifact, we're not entirely sure.

[BlackFlyme]

so then why does:

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_GLOVES:ITEM_GLOVES_GAUNTLETS]
[NAME:gauntlet:gauntlets]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[UPSTEP:1]
[SHAPED]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:20]
[LAYER_PERMIT:15]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
[SCALED]
[BARRED]
[METAL]
[HARD]
have UPSTEP in vanilla? even shields have it? Either Toady wasn't thinking when he made armor items or it does something.

Maybe I should have elaborated more;

Body armour doesn't have UPSTEP, but gloves boots and shields do. UPSTEP is how many steps up the item protects, so if a pair of gloves has [UPSTEP:0], then it will only protect the hand. Otherwise, it will go up one limb at a time until it reaches either the upper or lower body or until it runs out of steps. With vanilla gauntlets UPSTEP of 1, it will protect the hand and lower arm, but not the upper arm.

UBSTEP only exists on body armour, and for every step it has, it will protect additional parts moving away from the upper body, with the exception of anything past the lower body. Due to a glitch, however, it will keep going past the lower body, yet unable to protect lower body parts such as legs and feet, and can cover toes if UBSTEP is set at a high number or to [UBSTEP:MAX].

Finally, LBSTEP exists on both body armour and leg armour, and serves as the opposite of UPSTEP, only protecting the lower torso if set to [LBSTEP:0], and will move down for each step until it stops at the feet.

Though for whatever reason, fingers and toes will not be protected by LBSTEP and UPSTEP, and facial features are ignored by helmets.

[Mr S]

So we could have assless chaps (i.e. do not protect the legs) that are so long they drape over the feet, covering the toes.  But all of our shoes and boots are open toe.  Very interesting.  Dwarven fashion is a cruel mistress.

[BlackFlyme]

So we could have assless chaps (i.e. do not protect the legs) that are so long they drape over the feet, covering the toes.  But all of our shoes and boots are open toe.  Very interesting.  Dwarven fashion is a cruel mistress.

I think it's more of the fact the fingers and toes aren't very well defined aside from their [DIGIT] token, which allows them to gouge when wrestling. Adding [LIMB] to fingers/toes would allow them to be protected by gloves/shoes, assuming the clothes protect at least one step away.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

but if fingers have [LIMB] they would be used in grappling (toes wouldn't matter because they have no direct path to an UPPERBODY (cause the stop at LOWERBODY) or it is the fact they are connected to a lowerbody that prevents their use in grappling?)

now yes you can grab things with your fingers (only way that allows us to grab objects) but Imagine grabbing every part of an enemy with all your fingers, hands, and arms lol would be something to see. Good thing DF is not in 3D cause that mesh would be deformed to the extreme.

[BlackFlyme]

but if fingers have [LIMB] they would be used in grappling (toes wouldn't matter because they have no direct path to an UPPERBODY (cause the stop at LOWERBODY) or it is the fact they are connected to a lowerbody that prevents their use in grappling?)

now yes you can grab things with your fingers (only way that allows us to grab objects) but Imagine grabbing every part of an enemy with all your fingers, hands, and arms lol would be something to see. Good thing DF is not in 3D cause that mesh would be deformed to the extreme.

Unfortunately, adding [LIMB] is the only way to fix the issue that I know of. To be fair though, you can simultaneously bite and latch on to 6 people at once because of the way teeth are designed.

And yes, lower body parts cannot be used to grapple when you are standing. Though when you are on the ground, you can put people in leg-locks, so I would assume it would be possible to grapple with your toes if you are prone on the ground.

[scamtank]

Though when you are on the ground, you can put people in leg-locks, so I would assume it would be possible to grapple with your toes if you are prone on the ground.

Not really, I'm afraid. [STANCE] bodyparts don't seem to have any wrestling moves associated with them.

[Grimlocke]

So we could have assless chaps (i.e. do not protect the legs) that are so long they drape over the feet, covering the toes.  But all of our shoes and boots are open toe.  Very interesting.  Dwarven fashion is a cruel mistress.

Body and leg armor can never protect hands, feet and head. It can however protect everything else, including the legs, arms, throat, nose, and possible fingers and toes.
If you want some of those funky assless chaps you have to make very long boots, like so:

[ITEM_SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_CHAUSSE]
[NAME:chausse:chausses]
[METAL_ARMOR_LEVELS]
[CHAIN_METAL_TEXT]
[UPSTEP:MAX]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:131]
[LAYER_SIZE:12]
[LAYER_PERMIT:10]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[METAL]
[LEATHER]
[HARD][SOFT]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL]

Which is actualy how real leg armor worked. They wernt actual pants, but chausses that reached up to above the knee, and were attached to the padding below with points (laces with a metal bit on the end that were tied through the chainmail).

Helmets realy need to have an UBSTEP token though. Its silly how they fail to cover facial features and more importantly, fail to protect the throat.

now yes you can grab things with your fingers (only way that allows us to grab objects) but Imagine grabbing every part of an enemy with all your fingers, hands, and arms lol would be something to see. Good thing DF is not in 3D cause that mesh would be deformed to the extreme.

Not to mention that you can bite someone in the foot while standing upright

but if fingers have [LIMB] they would be used in grappling (toes wouldn't matter because they have no direct path to an UPPERBODY (cause the stop at LOWERBODY) or it is the fact they are connected to a lowerbody that prevents their use in grappling?)

now yes you can grab things with your fingers (only way that allows us to grab objects) but Imagine grabbing every part of an enemy with all your fingers, hands, and arms lol would be something to see. Good thing DF is not in 3D cause that mesh would be deformed to the extreme.

Unfortunately, adding [LIMB] is the only way to fix the issue that I know of. To be fair though, you can simultaneously bite and latch on to 6 people at once because of the way teeth are designed.

I cant seem to replicate the problem of toes and fingers not being covered by armor. I however dont recall whether or not the ones I use are modded. Heres one:

   [BP:TOE1:first toe:STP][CONTYPE:STANCE][DIGIT][SMALL][CATEGORY:TOE]
      [DEFAULT_RELSIZE:5]

Whatever this does have, and the bugged ones dont, is likely what fixed the issue. If not the maybe it got fixed, but nobody noticed yet.

I do wish I could get this to work with throats and noses.

[Putnam]

This "partial remains" thing I've seen with Lord English--it was caused by having a creature with a "lower body" that doesn't have the token that determines it as a lower body, IIRC.