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[Silverthrone]

Ech, it can all become awfully token when the only real goal is a vague "be original". I rather like the basic fantasy standard (sometime vaguely in the past, there is magic and an awful lot of mythological creatures about), provided it is well presented and an engaging place to visit.
Morrowind, I suppose, is a good mixture of both. A relatively standard base, with some very carefully made design choices and themes propping up the novel design. You never got the sense of some designer somewhere just pulling things from his hat.

Speaking on that subject, The Evil Within was quite the bother, with how it snatched together all sorts of vague horror settings and themes and tried to make them its own, with no real structure to be seen. Knowing from where you want to start and vaguely where you want to be can be very helpful, but that game had seemingly no intention of making an indentity of its own.

For what it's worth [drunk] [never dared play WoW personally, just listened]
I have a lot of respect for Warcraft, not just because I played WC2 and enough of WC3, but for the...  Arthas arc.
And while I'm very cynical about Sylvanas's popularity, I heard out one of my friends, and I have to say her arc is pretty strong too.  As a story.
Especially the more general conflict between high and dark elves...  They did manage to turn that on its head.  Elegantly.  Much like the Eldar and Dark Eldar in Starcraft & Broodwar, but still.

... also, since I'm drunk, and it's actually thread-relevant, fuck Blizzard https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/04/10
Though really, they took their fucking piracy as a base and proceeded to spin a pretty neat setting from it.
Still waiting for Starcraft: Ghost.

I rather like Sylvanas, but that is mainly because of old factionism. DEAD FRONT. _{And Moo Front, of course. Oh, my giddy aunt, one of the bay's confessed borderline furfriends like the Tauren? Oh, my, oh, dear, oh, blimey.}

As for Blizzard snatching their universe entirely from Games Workshop, I say good God, no... Not entirely, that is for certain. It is not as if that sort of universe (as much as I adore it and pine for it) is something one publisher can claim over another.
Not to mention, Blizzard can bring a horribly corny, silly and shallow story across beautifully, for the most part. I adore some of their work, faults and all. There is a lot of enthusiasm to make up for where there ought to have been depth.

[Arbinire]

it doesn't even need to be original, just have some passion for the world you are building.  I actually think Bethesda is a prime example of both.  No one is going to accuse them of originality, but with The Elder Scrolls titles, even though the stories have gotten watered down you can tell they're still passionate about the world because it was a world they created.  But then you have their Fallout games, and the writing just slacks and falls into that second part of my peeve...the twist everyone sees coming.  This happens because while they may be fans of the setting, they aren't passionate about it because it isn't theirs.

It honestly might be a problem with serialization and franchising of games in general, because these games that are some of the biggest offenders do see a shift in development teams and writers.

[Silverthrone]

Agreed, oh, so ever agreed... I adore Tamriel. I feel so ridiculously at home that I ought to apply for citizenship one of these days. The writing is frayed and rickety, it is smaller than its ambitions, but... There is something there. Something between all those books one might never read or all the runes that actually says things. It works, and it shows. From the halls of boiler-plate Cyrodiil to the shores of weird Morrowind.
(And speaking of, I do not mind settings looking for real world cultures for a direction, if done with care and passion. Skyrim was an absolute dream for a real-life Nord)

I cannot say what their Tamriel section have that their Fallout section lacks, but you are right, there is quite a difference. I have a lot to grumble about in regards to New Vegas, but Obsidian knew it, they could tap into that root that Bethesda can find in Tamriel, but not in the Wasteland.

[Rolan7]

Mm, interesting.  I always felt more at home in FO3.  Or New Vegas...  The land was alien to me, but the people were somewhat deeper.  Not as much as some say, but still.
Whereas Tamriel...  Morrowind was alien, as intended, and maybe as a result I failed to get fully invested in it.  Oblivion was a perfect playground.
...  At the time.  Now it feels super awkward, ruining immersion.  Skyrim comes close, particularly with mods...  There are just various little things that remind me I'm supposed to be a Norse fighter, regardless of what I actually chose.

And I don't just mean the racism.  In fact, honestly?  As my friends recently pointed out, the grey quarter is kinda hilarious to anyone who played Morrowind.
(Because the Dunmer of Morrowind were racist as FUCK)

[Neonivek]

Wasn't Archimonde a space god? And I seem to remember some space gods in Frozen Throne, although the space connection was a lot less clear (unless you read the manual).

But yeah, the sci-fi stuff in the Warcraft universe always seemed really tacked-on and unnecessary, I can barely even stand the steampunk shit. Can't we have a real low-tech fantasy universe for once, without magical steampunk robots?

It kind of hits a "What is the point?" which is why I think it is fairly uncommon

Because at that point just make it a historical game.

But you always have King of Dragon Pass for Low Fantasy (no really)

[Silverthrone]

Mm, interesting.  I always felt more at home in FO3.  Or New Vegas...  The land was alien to me, but the people were somewhat deeper.  Not as much as some say, but still.
Whereas Tamriel...  Morrowind was alien, as intended, and maybe as a result I failed to get fully invested in it.  Oblivion was a perfect playground.
...  At the time.  Now it feels super awkward, ruining immersion.  Skyrim comes close, particularly with mods...  There are just various little things that remind me I'm supposed to be a Norse fighter, regardless of what I actually chose.

And I don't just mean the racism.  In fact, honestly?  As my friends recently pointed out, the grey quarter is kinda hilarious to anyone who played Morrowind.
(Because the Dunmer of Morrowind were racist as FUCK)

That is true, Skyrim had a tendency to awkwardly assume that you were playing Shovkase Traileirson. While I went Khajiit as I always do (14 years of loyalty does not bend). That is one peeve that I always have regarding Bethesda; I feel as if my character could be a living, fighting broom cupboard and no one would notice or treat it differently from the sample hero on the pictures on the game box.
Of course, as a Khajiit, Skyrim was an exercise in "hah-HAH, Dunmers, hah!". I did get rather sympathetic towards them in the end, but still. Tee-heeh! Maybe in the next game, I can buy a couple from the Argonians for my potion factory! Hah-hah!

[Rolan7]

While I went Khajiit as I always do (14 years of loyalty does not bend).

I start every TES game bosmer, and it's my most canon playthrough.
Then I play Khajiit, dunmer, or even Briton (literally half-elf, a concept I loooove)

That is one peeve that I always have regarding Bethesda; I feel as if my character could be a living, fighting broom cupboard and no one would notice or treat it differently from the sample hero on the pictures on the game box.

I beg to disagree with that...  Compared to something like Mass Effect, TES offers a wide variety of paths to take.
Via meme we often think of the TES protagonists as taking every path, but that's literally going out of one's way.  The most natural path is to do whatever one's character is meant for - and, gradually, complete the "main quest" as the NPCs beg for your help.

That said, yeah, in Skyrim many quest NPCs treat you like a true son of Skyrim.
Maybe especially the Blades- sorry, this is probably way off topic now.

[Chiefwaffles]

Your point about wide varieties of paths, Rolan, doesn't really counter the broom cupboard comment.

Sure, you have lots of choices in what you do, and you can do a small number or large number of those things, but in the end it still feels like everyone sees you the same. You're THA DRAGUNBURN and nothing else. Sure, you get like 2 dialogue options to mention your shopping list of achievements, but that's worth a slightly changed NPC voice line if you're lucky.
Compare this to Mass Effect, where even though you have a much smaller amount of things for your character to be, it feels like people recognize that to a degree. It's not perfect, but it's definitely leagues ahead of Skyrim.

[SeriousConcentrate]

Voice acting killed RPGs. :V

Seriously though. It's a lot faster and cheaper to write about ten to twenty responses to a character's situation than it is to voice those lines. Particularly if you have to have a handful of different actors each do voice over.

[itisnotlogical]

Morrowind did one thing to make your character seem unique: you get a disposition penalty when first talking to somebody that isn't your race. It doesn't seem like much but it makes a world of difference, especially if we're comparing to other Elder Scrolls games where the bar is so low it's subterranean.

Skyrim gives you very few meaningful choices to make. Outside of the Civil War (which I wish just wasn't even in the game tbh), there isn't a single quest that locks you out of any other quest AFAIK. Want to assassinate the Emperor, then win the war for the Empire? No problem! Have you slaughtered dozens of Forsworn? They'll still accept your help in Markarth! (Not that there's any way to not help them once the quest's begun.)

You can also go from single digits to 60 in a skill fairly quickly meaning that there's not much point to classifying your character as anything in particular. In Morrowind, barring glitches or alchemical fuckery, that's a bit more difficult to do so there's a certain rigidity once you get high levels in some primary skills.

[Arcvasti]

Skills are not even a little bit rigid in Morrowind, at least not once you've surpassed poverty. You can very easily train a skill with a level of 5 to 100 with enough money and a master trainer. I remember deciding I wanted Long Blades for one artifact and then spent like five minutes. Whereas Skyrim's skill system, or at least Destruction/Weapon skills, are much much harder to train quickly.

[Silverthrone]

Having a think about it, I imagine it is because someone on the design line (I like to think that it was a detached producer. The sort of parvenu who wears a full suit without a tie and consider it proper business wear, the sort who is pushing for including co-op, because that it was the social medias are bleeting about and watch me grumble over this lovely strawman I built that says more about me) said "but we would not want to limit the custome... Player, would we?"

That is, indeed a nice little peeve to drag out into the light. When a game does not have what it takes to limit you, when it would be best to do so. As long as it is telegraphed, having to forego one possibility for another when it would serve the game is an important feature. That said, I quite like running business for both the Fighter's Club and Murder 'Я' us, but if there is a point where those would clash, there must be a better solution than to awkwardly ignore it.

[itisnotlogical]

Skills are not even a little bit rigid in Morrowind, at least not once you've surpassed poverty. You can very easily train a skill with a level of 5 to 100 with enough money and a master trainer. I remember deciding I wanted Long Blades for one artifact and then spent like five minutes. Whereas Skyrim's skill system, or at least Destruction/Weapon skills, are much much harder to train quickly.

Heh, I keep forgetting that I was actually pretty bad at Morrowind. Disregard what I said.


Something that really annoys me about the entire Elder Scrolls series is that you have to really make your own fun in regards to roleplaying. The Nerevarine was essentially mute, but you still had a few meaningful choices to make such as guild/house choice. In any TES game you can go from savior of the universe to heartless destroyer of innocent lives and back again in the blink of an eye, as long as you pay the bounty or hide long enough.

I mean, part of the freedom to roleplay in a given setting is that there is a world beyond you that will react in ways not necessarily beneficial to you. Your spouse should hate you if you divorce them for no reason, not leap back into your arms just for asking. There should be a point beyond which guards will not accept (1000gp * number of murder victims) as suitable recompense.

[Persus13]

Is there some sort of law I don't know about that says whenever there's an extended conversation on Gaming Pet Peeves, Bethesda gets brought up and derails the conversation into a discussion about Bethesda games?

[Silverthrone]

Is there some sort of law I don't know about that says whenever there's an extended conversation on Gaming Pet Peeves, Bethesda gets brought up and derails the conversation into a discussion about Bethesda games?

I beg your pardon, but I simply adore Bethesda games (mostly), and I rather like talking about them. Believe you me, few things are as great as meeting another Tamrielian on a dreary mingle party. Then, there is always something mutually interesting to talk about. Not to mention, there is a lot of material one can rake through with those. Both good and less so, of course. I believe it might be a natural law.

But to help lead the topic away, hmm... Too Many Messages Written in Blood on the Walls.

I like the message-on-wall method of bringing some story across. It is a good way to do background storytelling, while using the medium to your advantage. But dear me, writing something down in your own or someone else's blood is a rather desperate action, and it never fails to amuse to see a carefully printed and spelled message (for someone dying of blood loss), written so high up the wall that they would have needed a stepladder.