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[Krevsin]

Iron Kingdoms has trollkin as a race. Playable. The fungus D&D kind.
Also Goblins as a civilized race (Gobbers) and a feral version (Boggers). Gobbers are great at hitting machines to make them work.

Pratchett's trolls are a very central part of almost every novel, along with dwarfs, certainly not "monsters in passing".

Yeah, Pratchett is pretty good about that. I especially like the explanation for their thickness.

His elves were also pretty great.

[Bohandas]

Elves only have a 50/50 chance of even feeling separate from humans.

That is something that really annoys me. The fact that they can breed with humans in most settings means that they would be of the same species that humans. Why even bother giving them pointy ears if all of their differences can be explained by being from a different culture? Hell, I'd prefer a human civilization with elf-like traits to actual elves because the former at least shows a minimal will not to blatantly copy Tolkien.

Relevant, given the simultaneous existence of half-orcs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species

[FArgHalfnr]

Elves only have a 50/50 chance of even feeling separate from humans.

That is something that really annoys me. The fact that they can breed with humans in most settings means that they would be of the same species that humans. Why even bother giving them pointy ears if all of their differences can be explained by being from a different culture? Hell, I'd prefer a human civilization with elf-like traits to actual elves because the former at least shows a minimal will not to blatantly copy Tolkien.

Relevant, given the simultaneous existence of half-orcs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species

I certainly didn't know about that, thanks for sharing.
I'd love to see this used as a reason for how the fantasy races came to exist, it would be original.

[Shadowlord]

Interesting.

[UXLZ]

Didn't elves exist before Tolkien, in fairy tales and the like?

Not the classic 'perfect at everything' ones, but things similar to them... Might be thinking of Pixies.

[Darkmere]

Tolkien invented nothing. He just retold mythology from the past several hundred years in a different way.

That's not a bad thing, it's just the truth.

[Delta Foxtrot]

Didn't elves exist before Tolkien, in fairy tales and the like?

Not the classic 'perfect at everything' ones, but things similar to them... Might be thinking of Pixies.

"Humans but more awesome" is a pretty old trope. Similarly pixie-type beings have been around for ages. I've seen both types referred to as elves.

[Sergarr]

Tolkien invented nothing. He just retold mythology from the past several hundred years in a different way.

That's not a bad thing, it's just the truth.

Essentially, all the dwarves and elves were popular not only because of Tolkien, but because they've been considered to be cool by generations and generations of people retelling stories about them. They've been there for a thousand year, and will be with us for a thousand more.

[nenjin]

Isn't Tolkien like, the first to put them in recognizable human-esqe social groups though? My sense is that Elves, Dwarves, Pixies, Faeries, etc... lived apart from the human world in fiction until Tolkien put them side-by-side with us in his worlds. Now it's basically a defacto assumption that, if you've got Elves and Dwarves, they build towns, have governments, have a working class, so on and so forth.

[flame99]

Tolkien invented nothing. He just retold mythology from the past several hundred years in a different way.

That's not a bad thing, it's just the truth.

Weren't the orcs basically invented by him, though? I remember reading that they had some inspirations drawn from the story of the hobs (Basically goblins), but Tolkein made massive alterations to them. I could be wrong, though.

[Darkmere]

Isn't Tolkien like, the first to put them in recognizable human-esqe social groups though? My sense is that Elves, Dwarves, Pixies, Faeries, etc... lived apart from the human world in fiction until Tolkien put them side-by-side with us in his worlds. Now it's basically a defacto assumption that, if you've got Elves and Dwarves, they build towns, have governments, have a working class, so on and so forth.

It's been a while since I've read up on Norse and Scandanavian folklore but I seem to remember Thor visiting dwarf lands to find their greatest metalsmiths, which implied that not everyone was a metalsmith. Dunno, might be some interesting hints in the Brisingamen story to look up there.

I am pretty sure there were descriptions of non-human family groups in the cursed treasure of Fafnir as well. I suppose it comes down to where you want to draw the line.

Weren't the orcs basically invented by him, though? I remember reading that they had some inspirations drawn from the story of the hobs (Basically goblins), but Tolkein made massive alterations to them. I could be wrong, though.

Orc comes from a Latin name of an underworld diety, Orcus. There is a race of malformed men called Orcneas in the early part of Beowulf (making the reference as old as the English language), described as being the descendants of Cain. Tolkein just took most of an earlier iteration of goblin-kin from another authot, changed a few details, and gave them an abbreviated Old English name.

[Delta Foxtrot]

Human storytelling is iterative, basically.

[Bohandas]

Isn't Tolkien like, the first to put them in recognizable human-esqe social groups though? My sense is that Elves, Dwarves, Pixies, Faeries, etc... lived apart from the human world in fiction until Tolkien put them side-by-side with us in his worlds. Now it's basically a defacto assumption that, if you've got Elves and Dwarves, they build towns, have governments, have a working class, so on and so forth.

It's been a while since I've read up on Norse and Scandanavian folklore but I seem to remember Thor visiting dwarf lands to find their greatest metalsmiths, which implied that not everyone was a metalsmith. Dunno, might be some interesting hints in the Brisingamen story to look up there.

I am pretty sure there were descriptions of non-human family groups in the cursed treasure of Fafnir as well. I suppose it comes down to where you want to draw the line.

Weren't the orcs basically invented by him, though? I remember reading that they had some inspirations drawn from the story of the hobs (Basically goblins), but Tolkein made massive alterations to them. I could be wrong, though.

Orc comes from a Latin name of an underworld diety, Orcus. There is a race of malformed men called Orcneas in the early part of Beowulf (making the reference as old as the English language), described as being the descendants of Cain. Tolkein just took most of an earlier iteration of goblin-kin from another authot, changed a few details, and gave them an abbreviated Old English name.

Until Tolkien it was more or less just an obscure synonym for "Ogre" however.

It's similar to how the makers of Skyrim didn't technically invent the draugr, yet their version of the draugr is quite distinct from the mythological creature, yet is probably what mpst of us think of when we hear the word (if we're familoar with it at all)

[Stuebi]

I don't mind "generic" races as long as the characters are interesting. I'm totally fine with meeting Dwarves and Elves in my Fantasy, as long as you dont pressent EVERY member of the race with the exact same traits and add some depth to it. I also hate it when they try to hide it behind different names. It doesnt matter that you call them "Fae", everybody and their dog knows they're Elves. Might as well call them that.

I really liked the different races in ME tough. You had everything from pink jellyfish, over permanently angry Lizards to blue tentacleheads with a culture that bases itself on "Bang everything that moves.".

And on the subject of inventing words. Final Fantasy 13. Whoever thought it was a good idea to write a story that needs a freaking Lexicon built into the game was a bloody moron. I really tried to get at least some mileage out of that game, because I was stupid enough to buy it at full price. But I can get maybe 4 hours into it before the corridors get to me, and my brain starts shutting down higher brainfunctions to make room for more stupid, made up words.

[flame99]

I don't mind "generic" races as long as the characters are interesting. I'm totally fine with meeting Dwarves and Elves in my Fantasy, as long as you dont pressent EVERY member of the race with the exact same traits and add some depth to it. I also hate it when they try to hide it behind different names. It doesnt matter that you call them "Fae", everybody and their dog knows they're Elves. Might as well call them that.

I really liked the different races in ME tough. You had everything from pink jellyfish, over permanently angry Lizards to blue tentacleheads with a culture that bases itself on "Bang everything that moves.".

And on the subject of inventing words. Final Fantasy 13. Whoever thought it was a good idea to write a story that needs a freaking Lexicon built into the game was a bloody moron. I really tried to get at least some mileage out of that game, because I was stupid enough to buy it at full price. But I can get maybe 4 hours into it before the corridors get to me, and my brain starts shutting down higher brainfunctions to make room for more stupid, made up words.

I don't mind using different words for the races, provided there's an in universe reason for it (Which hardly ever happens). For example, in my con world, the Zandals are dwarves, but will never refer to themselves or others as such, because they've been exiled from the homelands and are honor bound to never consider themselves dwarves again. By extension, most of the other people in contact with the Zandals just assume that's the term for dwarves, so it's become ubiquitous.