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[Rolan7]

I've replied to this but put the reply to the Skyrim thread since I went on a bit long and Skyrim-specific:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91172.msg6098130#msg6098130

[Sergarr]

Oh hey, I thought of something actually

Diminishing Value of Elites/Commanders

When you encounter groups of enemies composed entirely of "Elites" (eg. Elite Guards) in random circumstances in which you would expect them to be doing something more useful. Even worse is when enemies with higher ranks just start appearing in groups, so suddenly you have to fight a squad of "Enemy Captain"s and their grunts aren't even mixed in. Worse than that is when this all occurs due to level scaling, so after a point you'll only ever seen "Elite Bandits/Bandit Chiefs" travelling in packs with good equipment, and when you see a battle it'll inexplicably be composed entirely of officers.

I suppose a sister-peeve of this is that tendency to just use a higher rank or position as a shorthand for "stronger and better equipped". As if the US could have won WW2 faster if they personally sent their strongest soldiers, Eisenhower, Bradley and Patton, straight into battle where they would inexplicably be more durable and deadly.

I remember killing dozens of "Minotaur Kings" in Might & Magic 6... though they were kind of really tough in that game (loads of HP + strong attack + magic ranged attack with a chance to instantly kill is a pretty strong combo)

[Rolan7]

There's realism to having all-officer teams, though, since non-commissioned officers are officers.  In the army, it's typical for a private to be promoted to E-4 "Corporal" after about 2 years (if I'm reading this right http://usmilitary.about.com/od/promotions/l/blenpromrates.htm).  Corporals are considered qualified to lead teams, but more importantly they have a certain amount of experience and proven confidence.  I'm pretty sure high risk operations involve corporals or greater, operating under commissioned officers or higher ranking NCOs.

The ridiculous thing would be to form squad of *commissioned* officers like lieutenants or generals (or kings, yeah).  Unless they're fighter pilots, in which case I think they *have* to be commissioned officers (There are warrant officer pilots, who are specialists between COs and NCOs, but I don't know if they can fly attack vehicles or just transport vehicles).

[Delta Foxtrot]

Regarding the pilots, IIRC they made all pilots officers in WWI or such so that they'd be treated better as POWs.
I might be misremembering my history lessons, but didn't USSR have sports teams made up of "officers"?

I'd say it depends on the rank how annoying/noticable this trope is. Elite bodyguards made up of lieutenants? I can buy that. A singular tough guy somewhere between captain and colonel? Sure. I've watched enough fictional depictions of military to be comfortable with the idea of an officer being a bad ass and action hero, just as long as it's kept within some sort of boundaries.
HoMM does get a bit silly when you're throwing around hundred strong stacks of various kings and chieftains.

[Rolan7]

A bodyguard full of basic lieutenants would be ridiculous.  A fresh lieutenant has been trained in command, but might have *no* combat experience - it'd be like having a bodyguard of expensive privates, and a waste of expensive training.

A bodyguard of sergeants, even sergeant majors, would make more sense.  Seems like corporals would be more normal, though.

My understanding of the pilot thing is that planes are incredibly expensive, so it makes sense to only let people fly them after extensive education.  And anyone with that much education (which is very separate from experience and live training) is a commissioned officer, or warrant officer, almost by definition.

[Delta Foxtrot]

A bodyguard full of basic lieutenants would be ridiculous.  A fresh lieutenant has been trained in command, but might have *no* combat experience - it'd be like having a bodyguard of expensive privates, and a waste of expensive training.

A bodyguard of sergeants, even sergeant majors, would make more sense.  Seems like corporals would be more normal, though.

Full officer bodyguards would be silly in something that tries to pass itself as a realistic depiction. But some fantasy like James Bond? Authority equals power and therefore no mere private or sergeant could hope to have the strength to guard Count von MacGuffin. But I suppose that's up to taste.

My understanding of the pilot thing is that planes are incredibly expensive, so it makes sense to only let people fly them after extensive education.  And anyone with that much education (which is very separate from experience and live training) is a commissioned officer, or warrant officer, almost by definition.

That does make sense.

[Rolan7]

Totally, I was off on a tangent about real life for some reason.  I love the trope of the big powerful ruler having their highest-ranking commanders as highly thematic bodyguards.  I imagine that these commanders pass off all the actual management to their own officers off-screen.  Their role is to choose an interesting theme, be a figurehead, and punish failure.

[NullForceOmega]

Actually the rank of Corporal is being phased out of the U.S. army (as of 2002, not sure about now but that was the direction things were going then), the justification being that there was no real reason to have the intermediary rank any more when it was equally viable to just have more Sergeants.

[FArgHalfnr]

specie

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

A specie is a group whose members are able to reproduce together. I don't see where I was wrong. Of course I was talking about intelligent species but I thought that was obvious enough in context not to require me to specify.

[Ghills]

specie

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

A specie is a group whose members are able to reproduce together. I don't see where I was wrong. Of course I was talking about intelligent species but I thought that was obvious enough in context not to require me to specify.

That requires an s at the end.  Without the s it means money.
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specie
Specie may refer to:
    Coins or other metal money in mass circulation
    Bullion coins
    Hard money (policy)
    Commodity money
    Specie Circular, 1836 executive order by US President Andrew Jackson regarding hard money
    Specie Payment Resumption Act

See also
    Species, unrelated classification system for flora and fauna

[alexandertnt]

Naw I am a huge fan of "generic" in almost everything and there are reasons they are used so much. Often the reason they have only one unique race is because by having these generic ones everyone is on the same page and they don't need to expound on everyone else.

I have been stuck on that same page for so long now, there is only so many times you can read it before it bores you to death.

Please media, expound some new ideas.

[Neonivek]

Well the way I put it Alexandertnt it is apples.

Everyone who uses apples makes apple pie... and yeah Apple Pie is good but everyone makes apple pie and eventually you get sick of it.

But there are so many recipes you can use apples for. You can make a BBQ sauce, you can make tarts, you can make a juice, you can put it in pancakes.

No one uses those generic formulas and use them to create anything interesting or fulfilling they always use it in the most basic way possible as shorthand.

Sure the Kobolds are just a generic dog race in Suikeoden... Heck Kings Quest 6 had dog people as well.

Yet they make them rather endearing as a race that honestly they are both cute and fun to experience on screen.

There is a reason why none of the series other races really hit me as strongly as Gobacha and Gengen. (Heck I love their clothes!).

---

Or rather you are right... But I just bet there is a way to do it right.

Besides, I've already seen a setting with nothing but original races and the only interesting one was this dinosaur races of near sighted super intelligent dinosaurs.

[Rolan7]

As a counterpoint to Alexandertnt, I like tropes.  They serve as a carrier wave, the modulation of which can be really interesting.
Like Star Trek, with its elves who are repressing baser urges (and have siblings who embraced them).  Which was so popular it got carried into the Warhammer universes, now that I think about it.

When a work of art tries too hard to be unique, it's can be exhausting.  Art needs to speak to ideas which resonate with us.  It's great that Avatar had tall blue aliens with MMI tentacles, but it resonated because they were like indigenous humans (also, they looked like sexy humans).

There's a ton of crappy novels where the author invents a dozen unpronounceable words for the various castes and social groups of various aliens, and it's hard to follow and it's hard to tell if there's any payoff.  Being incomprehensible can be a replacement for actual depth.

Kinda like Homestuck, except there it does pay off.  Mostly.  And also largely because the various "alien" conventions are actually things we empathize with, we just don't have names for them.  Like hating someone so much you're eager to interact with them, just for the rush.

Morrowind is an example where the main themes really were alien, and yet it worked.  Because the developers weren't just making a crazy world, they made an exotic one...  Really impressive.

Fakedit: Gonna read Neonivek's post properly later when I can

[alexandertnt]

You just went to the opposite extreme

The reason that these alien things are familiar is because they are like human things in some way, I see no reason why you can't invent a new race that isn't just "space-elves with a tweak or two" and not have it be relevant to human experiences.

I am saying "I'm sick of elves, even with tweaks", I am not saying "I'm sick of races that are even remotely familiar to me as a human".

New tropes and ideas do need to be created from time to time, that's how something like fantasy can remain fresh. Using the same tropes ad-infinitum is just stagnation. You'll get used to them in time. I bet Tolkien's works seemed pretty alien at the time.

In many fiction I have seen, races seem to me to be the apple pie and not the apple.

Let me frame it differently. What gives Tolkien a monopoly on food ingredients? Have you had apricot pie? It's quite delicious.

I don't disagree that familiar races can't be done in a way that makes for a good novel, but it's still a peeve of mine.

[notquitethere]

I'm siding with Alexander here: generic is a negative descriptor. I won't read a fantasy novel with elves and dwarves any more, what's the point? Even though they put some effort into subverting all the tropes, Dragon Age put me on the wrong footing from the off by not doing something fresher. In theory I should like games like Baldur's Gate (I love party-based WRPGs) but the setting is pretty blah. I've played plenty of tabletop D&D and it's always fun, not because you're a dwarven wizard (or whatever), but because your co-creating a game with people you like.