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[Whackjob]

Sitting here at the office, and between the tasks I am set, I'm currently pondering the possibilities.  I've done quite a bit of reading here, about what other folks have done as far as defenses goes, but I don't know that well the mechanics of actual mine cart behavior.  So let me run through my mental scenario.

A minecart is placed on a very short track.  It is loaded down with whatever will be the projectiles.  (Considering glass spears at the moment)  When full, and Fun is required, the cart is set to be dumped.  Urist McCartDumper shows up eventually, grabs cart and cargo both, and drops it down a 5z pit where it freefalls.  At the bottom, is a carved ramp up with a track ramp.  The cart rockets down this ramp, straightens out, and passes the end of track, going out into open space.  The gap is 1 point wide.  On the other side, a wall with carved fortifications.  The cart slams into the wall and the hamster that is the focus of my ire is now dodging glittery pretty death.  The cart, now empty, falls down a couple Z levels where it can be recovered moderately safely.  The cart is then taken topside and again loaded.

Would the mechanics permit this?  Does a cart hitting a track ramp follow the track at high speed without dumping its cargo?  If the cart goes off the end of a track, does it fall too far to spray its cargo out on the same z level as the track it just left?

I have no idea.

[Whackjob]

I think my main queries are, to be more succinct:

1.) Does a dropped cart, upon hitting a track ramp, follow the track?
2.) Does the vertical acceleration translate into horizontal speed due to the track ramp?
3.) If a cart is fired over open space, does it drop 1z level immediately, or do I have some wiggle room?
4.) Would serrated discs be more likely to cleave an errant hamster in twain?
5.) Could a dwarven child be fired through the fortifications via cart, if for no other reason than generalized villainy for the purpose of comedic relief and population control?  Ok, I'm thinking too small.  Bears.  War bears in mine carts.  Can I put livestock in carts?  Oh god oh god GOD WHAT IF I PUT WAR BEARS IN CAGES IN CARTS AND FIRE THEM DOWN THAT RAMP AND THERES A DIVOT BEFOREHAND THAT FILLS THE CARTS WITH LAVA AND SETS THE CAGE ON FIRE AND THE WAR BEAR ON FIRE AND THE CART ON FIRE AND THE WOODEN TRAINING SPEARS ALSO STACKED INSIDE ON FIRE AND IT HITS THE FORTIFICATION AND THE GOBLIN IS HIT WITH FIRE SPEARS AND SMOKE AND A FIREY SMOKING DAMNED WAR BEAR?!

THIS.  IS.  DWARVEN!

[anzelm]

If the minecart is airborne before hitting the fortification, you need another tile with a second stationary minecart between your projectile and the fortification:

Code: [Select]

# - fortification
= - track
C - cart projectile
E stationary empty cart
. - open space

#E.=====C===

<-- firing direction

The contents are sprayed outside the fortification with some horizontal and vertical spread. In a test with iron spears I did, The contents spread ~10 tiles wide at a range of ~30 tiles. Vertically the contents reached at most one z-level above fortification level, falling down on a parabolic trajectory afterwards. This means that you can shoot down fliers with a horizontal setup.

[Larix]

I think my main queries are, to be more succinct:

1.) Does a dropped cart, upon hitting a track ramp, follow the track?

<drops cart down chute>
Yes.

2.) Does the vertical acceleration translate into horizontal speed due to the track ramp?

Don't know. Didn't look like it. Track ramps give a lot of acceleration by themselves, so if you, instead of throwing the cart down a chute, pushed it down a series of tracks, you'd get guaranteed solid acceleration. That would probably be a better approach in any case: a loaded cart is much easier to 'shoot' by pulling a lever (activating a roller) or by pushing it towards a ramp. And it doesn't require you to fiddle with dump zones, reclaiming of your dumped cart and whatnot. Might have been pure weirdness, but it seemed they wouldn't dump my cart before i unassigned it from the minecart route, either...

3.) If a cart is fired over open space, does it drop 1z level immediately, or do I have some wiggle room?

Depends on the speed of the cart. One fresh from a highest-speed roller will fly horizontally four tiles before dropping down a z. You could get significantly more 'air time' from a ramp-accelerated cart. For massive fun, you could also opt for launching the cart over an upward ramp, which sents it (and apparently its contents, should they part company) on a ballistic trajectory.

4.) Would serrated discs be more likely to cleave an errant hamster in twain?

Hamster or giant hamster? Ordinary hamsters are vermin and probably impossible to attack. Flying serrated discs promise incredible choppy funtimes. Can't really go wrong with those as payload.

5.) Bears.  War bears in mine carts.

Yes. This is a thing you must do.

AFAIK, you can only get living creatures other than (adult civilian) dwarfs inside a cart by putting them in a cage and loading the cage on the cart. I think releasing the payload takes another step - you need to slam the cart into a wall to release the cages and then have the cages slam into another wall to launch the bears. Never tried shotguns, so that's just hearsay.

[Whackjob]

Thank you kindly.  Now, is there a way I can put war bears in carts and set them on fire and project them through the fortification cuts?

For the Fun room, I think, given the information you've given me, that I will need to make it at least 2z high as to not lose shots from the parabolic arc.  This is no problem.  An additional thought occurs to me.  Why is a stationary cart required?  Won't the cart slamming into the all unleash the metaphorical dogs of war?  Would spears ignited by magma persist long enough to imbed in enemy flesh and also set them on fire?  If the Professor were a legendarily trained wrestler, could he throw Gilligan hard enough to impale the Skipper and still be spry enough to dodge the blows from Mrs. Howell?  How long could a War Bear burn before it were consumed completely and rendered into the most awesome ash ever? 

#EDIT:  Saw above post.  Thank you also.  So bears in carts can work.  Bears in cages in carts fired through fortifications might possibly but would require hitting two walls.  I will have to ponder this heavily.

[Whackjob]

Wait, wait.  Wait.  Ok, so the cart has to hit something, not necessarily a wall, to launch the war bear cage.  Then for the bear to be turned free, it must hit another wall.  So if we went with the above setup noted in post three, we could cram one cage with one thousand war bears into a cart.  Cart goes down long ramp track, through the magma divot, flies into the gap and strikes the empty cart.  Then the KiloBear cage would strike the fortifications and shatter, propelling Deca-Centi-Bruinite munition through the fortification and impacting directly upon the enemy.

I will try this.

I may also flood the Fun room with a little water, to quench the bears as they fall, thus preserving their lives, still permitting bad tempers due to modest scorching.  The smoke and steam would also make fleeing difficult for the enemy.  I would assume.

[anzelm]

QuantumMenace said: "A minecart will fly through a fortification if it's over a gap, but it can't fly through another immobilized minecart."
Source: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=114654.0

[Whackjob]

QuantumMenace said: "A minecart will fly through a fortification if it's over a gap, but it can't fly through another immobilized minecart."
Source: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=114654.0

Uh.  So if the fortification is over a gap, the mine cart may go through?  Or if the cart is over the gap when it strikes the fortification?  If a minecart strikes the waiting empty one I've got, does it go anywhere, or does it stay put?  What happens if I put a duck in that cart?

#EDIT: Another question occurs to me.  Provided I succeeding in making a War Bear munition, what can I do to prevent every bear from being perma stunned the second it impacts on the target zone?  I expect all will be on fire before they land.  If I flood that area with 3/7, will the bears "splash down" softly?  Drown?  Yell MARCO and wait for the goblins to say POLO?

[Oaktree]

I take it the gap is to keep children, pets, and workers out of the rail tunnel?  If so, a design can be done that generally doesn't require it.

My shotgun design did a impulse ramp accelerator* to run a loaded cart at high speed into a wall that was right over a hole (part of the recovery system).  On the Z-level above that wall was the fortification that the contents of the mine cart fired out through to spread coppery death on whoever was outside.

* - The accelerator was 7-8 impulse ramps in a row.  They got the cart moving at roughly 1 tile/tick.

Carts were loaded at a central location and then guided to stops where they rested on hatches sitting on a central shaft each one z-level above the other.  At the bottom of the shaft was a track ramp and other track that moved the carts to the beginning of the impulse ramp series (the gun).

Carts that hit the wall and "fired" dropped down *2* Z-levels onto another track ramp.  This started them moving down another set of track returning the cart to near the loading location at fairly slow speed.  Notice that the firing track is has vertical shafts at each end - that keeps the dwarves, children, and non-flying pets out.

The gun fired multiple rounds by pulling levers in sequence.  First shot opened lowermost hatch, second round the second lowest, and so forth.  And with the hatches open the dwarves would not guide the carts back to the firing location until the hatch was closed.

There are better ways to do things, but this did work operationally and flayed goblins (and their mounts) somewhat effectively.  A lot of hauling work to recover fired ammo and reload carts though.  Which the water-based systems do work around since spent rounds will eventually evaporate or flow clear.

[Whackjob]

Nah, the gap by the fortification wall was so the cart would drop out of possible bow range by whatever might be standing right next to it.  Want the carts to be recoverable yet out of potential fields of fire.

But I'm scrapping the complete idea above.  Excepting the flaming war bears which I WILL do at some point, because at this point it's a serious matter of form.

But no.  Now, I've got a nice setup in my head that I badly want to build.  If I'm correct, it can fire at rapid speed, continuously, and keep going until I turn it off.  A recent post I recall;  Noted that a cart load of water hits with the power of a boulder.  If I set up the landing zone and the firing area so they're part of the same artificial water table, and load the cart by having it go into a divot, and use a water wheel reactor to power rollers, it should do the trick quite nicely.  Just a few gearboxes (those things are the cat's unforsaken roar, as we're wont to say 'round here) attached to levers to enable and disable the power. 

Water machine gun.  I like the premise.  "The Baron has made a demand!  Bathing is now MANDATORY and UNAVOIDABLE.  For the sake of cleanliness and survivability, each Dwarf will be issued a brand new shield made of soap before entering the chamber."
"

[Whackjob]

Dub post.

[Brilliand]

I may also flood the Fun room with a little water, to quench the bears as they fall, thus preserving their lives, still permitting bad tempers due to modest scorching.  The smoke and steam would also make fleeing difficult for the enemy.  I would assume.

And risk obsidianizing your war bears?

A cartload of magma is probably more deadly than a thousand war bears anyway. 

[Whackjob]

And risk obsidianizing your war bears?

Absolutely.  First, an enemy invasion, death arrives at the door.
Second, flaming counterattack with angry immolated war bears.
Third, commemorating the successful defense with the adornment of the main dining hall by obsidian bear statues of remarkable quality.

It's like poetry.  With death and bears.


It'll have to do until I can figure out a way to get my kittens and rooster militia to spar.

[Girlinhat]

This can actually be done much simpler, at least the simple part.

Make a lot of spears, serrated disks, stolen swords, whatever.
Make a 2 tile track, rollers on both tiles set to max speed.
The rollers lead directly to a fortification.

Turn rollers on, max achieves instant speed, hits fortification and contents go flying.

Code: [Select]

>>F

^^^
||Fortification
|Roller, empty space
Roller, with a hauling route to load spears but not send the cart in any direction

[Whackjob]

New thought: Does Miasma in dense enough quantities kill?  In most of my fortress, I have rail running down every major corridor.  I use it for both goods transfer and trash removal.  Which got me thinking:  Eggs.  Specifically, eggs that have intentionally been left out and become rotten.  I note eggs can be gathered in rather... hrm, prestigeous quantities.  Rotten egg barrage, anyone?