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[Mictlantecuhtli]

Salmongod's point of necessity, and pragmatism, is worth bearing in mind. Also, we can either distinguish between surveillance and other methods, or we cannot. I'd prefer the former.

I do. And that's why I'm not lighting myself on fire over something we've been doing relatively openly since the PATRIOT and other authorizations were passed and logged into public record. I'm aware of the methods and endgame of the terrorist surveillance program, and I'm aware of the methods and endgame of Stasi-like groups. It is very different and there's a reason the Stasi had so little paper records to find, to put it shortly. We just need to look at this through realistic eyes.

Hell, even the UK's civilian surveillance is far larger in magnitude and depth and intrusion of privacy, but noone here is complaining about that. Even though they provide most of the PRISM and US international data's organization and collection before being shovelled into US metadata centers for the Snowden kids to sift through.

[GlyphGryph]

Actually quite a few people here have been complaining.

Australia's is probably the worst.

[Scoops Novel]

I am, though i live there. I'd also like to remind you nominal democracy seems to have gone over better then overt dictatorships. Edit: and as such, i fail to see reasons for the endgame to be distinct outside it's favored methods.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

All I'm saying is throwing on the Stasi label not only shows a level of ignorance of their methods but a willingness to divulge fact from comparisons. It gives no context and hinders understanding the methods and processes the US surveillance system goes through and arguably downplays the things the Stasi did. Which, being Jewish, I do not appreciate, as they were basically a Lite-SS. :/

Compare and contrast all you wish, but do not correlate the two. It's probably the only time I'll make a sincere request to the board to respect that. As it's pretty insulting to hear the US systems being made out to be worse than the Stasi, who executed dissidents and drove people to suicide by ruining their lives and careers. My father being one of them targeted.


Thanks for the invite back to Germany Post-WW2, pricks.

[Scoops Novel]

I'll do so, though i equally expect you to bear in mind that the whole world isn't as comparatively lightly exploited as the west, and that's in my blood.

[PanH]

I have no idea if you mean that people are less exploited in the west or the opposite.
I have no idea what that sentence means.

[Scoops Novel]

I have no idea if you mean that people are less exploited in the west or the opposite.
I have no idea what that sentence means.

I'll be blunt. Others don't get off as lightly as the west, and before you ask me to dismiss the depths to which a government can sink because of your grandfathers blood, remember my own.

That would be the clear version. Not wishing to come off as a fanatic, i muffled it.

[Loud Whispers]

Thanks for the invite back to Germany Post-WW2, pricks.

Oh wow it's nice to see Bay12 not taking pointless things personally again.

[Scoops Novel]

It's been buried on the guardians front page, but this was released today, where snowden has stated that "i never gave any information to Chinese or Russian governments", according to Gleen Greenwald. Asides from commentary on a sensationalist Washington post piece and mention on Brazilian anger on the PRISM, that's it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/10/snowden-denies-information-russia-china.

[Scoops Novel]

For the record, the reddit comment thread i found it on (first time I've intended to give it a serious once over) has a good few sceptical of both parties. http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1i0jcu/snowden_i_never_gave_any_information_to_chinese/

[SalmonGod]

As it's pretty insulting to hear the US systems being made out to be worse than the Stasi, who executed dissidents and drove people to suicide by ruining their lives and careers.

And what if I believe that the U.S. also executes dissidents and ruins people's lives/careers to the point of driving them to suicide?  I think they just go about it differently.  I could cite examples involving plenty of people I respect(ed) and be offended that you're making light of their suffering, but I understand that the information that sticks out to me and my ethical interpretations differs from yours.

[olemars]

Peter Sunde of TPB fame is developing a privacy-oriented messenger app thingie. Might be worth keeping an eye on.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

As it's pretty insulting to hear the US systems being made out to be worse than the Stasi, who executed dissidents and drove people to suicide by ruining their lives and careers.

And what if I believe that the U.S. also executes dissidents and ruins people's lives/careers to the point of driving them to suicide?  I think they just go about it differently.  I could cite examples involving plenty of people I respect(ed) and be offended that you're making light of their suffering, but I understand that the information that sticks out to me and my ethical interpretations differs from yours.

If you can tell me with a straight face that the US and Stasi surveillance are remotely comparable in either method or motive then you're woefully ignorant and laughable in future debates on security and intelligence issues, bottom line. Until you decide that facts are more important than making the government into your personal boogeyman, I'm done even bothering listening to your tripe.

And what if I believe that the U.S. also executes dissidents and ruins people's lives/careers to the point of driving them to suicide?  I think they just go about it differently.

You have no basis for such beliefs. I go off the actual facts of the matter instead of horseshit CIA conspiracy theories mixed with ever-lamented Slippery-slope theories. The Stasi was an organization dedicated to execution of dissidents, and then you're off claiming and riding to insinuation land with conspiracies that the US intelligence operations like PRISM are to blame for extremely rare CIA executions.. you need to go back to your conspiracy theory drawing board.

[SalmonGod]

Someone also recommended bitmessenger to me recently.

[GlyphGryph]

Errr... but you do have to admit that the government uses its power to ruin careers and drive people to suicide. No, I don't think they are as bad as the Stasi or even China but it seems very much a difference of degree at this point, not kind. And they do seem to be narrowing that degree every year - summary assassination of US citizens.would have been fairly unthinkable a decade ago and now its part of standard policy. I don't think the government is near as bad as the stasi but I'm worried there are plenty of people in it that would like to see that change.