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[Chaoswizkid]

Related: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/us/in-secret-court-vastly-broadens-powers-of-nsa.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fnational%2Findex.jsonp

[PanH]

The USA might have expansive espionage systems but they are nearly exclusively for national security purposes. Any other applications are (with very few exceptions) illegal abuse of the programs. Not saying that such abuse is impossible or doesn't happen, or that the laws of what counts as national security are always draw in the right place, but ideologically and legally even law enforcement is quite constrained in it's applications of surveillance.

This is so not true. Echelon was widely used for industrial espionnage. It's even assumed it was its main use. Enercon, Lernout & Hauspie, Airbus are known targets.

[SalmonGod]

I really don't buy at all into the idea that the Counter-Terror/Homeland Security surveillance apparatus exists even primarily for national security purposes.  All raw numbers I've ever seen on the usage of these things points to corporate interests and political oppression.  The closest indication I've seen to the use of these powers in real counter-terrorism is for identification of easy targets for entrapment into fake terror plots just so they can point and say they've done something like what they're supposed to.

[Scoops Novel]

I get the impression there are a good few people sympathetic to Google on this. Why?

[palsch]

This is so not true. Echelon was widely used for industrial espionnage. It's even assumed it was its main use. Enercon, Lernout & Hauspie, Airbus are known targets.

Sorry but this isn't true either.

Echelon was primarily for spying on the Soviet Union. It was only after the cold war that there have been allegations of mission creep into industrial espionage.

The accusations about it's use for 'industrial espionage' are not industrial espionage in the traditional form, where information is taken from foreign companies and given to local ones. Instead it was against illegal activities conducted by businesses overseas. Certainly the Airbus affair - the only one of those I find acknowledged by all sides - was a case of their paying bribes to Saudi officials to win a contract. The American made this public information, killing the bid.

The only other form of 'industrial espionage' acknowledged by the USA are explicitly national security related; watching for trades in dual-use technology or other subtle transfers which may violate trade sanctions.

The Enercon case was alleged industrial espionage of the traditional form, where they were accused of passing technical details onto American companies who then patented them. Except that the patent in question was filed three years before the espionage was supposed to have taken place. The story then evolved to suggest the evidence used against them in court (they were found in violation of that patent) was collected using stolen information. That would be a violation of American law IMO, although slightly more consistent with the philosophy of only using such espionage against illegal behaviour.

I can't actually find the details of the L&H accusations, just charges that they were a front for German intelligence before the conviction of the CEO and founders for fraud in 2001.

I get the impression there are a good few people sympathetic to Google on this. Why?

From a European POV Google are the biggest immediate threat to anything productive coming from this.

Why? Well, the EU is likely to have at least some knee-jerk reaction to all this. And there are currently plans to draft future privacy and data protection regulations.

Given the situation just as published the semi-rational knee-jerk European reaction would be to increase data protection measures on metadata - the stuff being collected under PRISM - and increase restrictions on what and how long data can be stored for any purpose. These are both measures that google has actively been lobbying in opposition to for a long time now, measures which directly challenge their philosophies and business models.

And I really want them to direct any knee jerk reaction towards increased privacy laws. Not just because I like them but because the alternatives are more likely to have net negative effects (such as harming the European economy further by weakening the proposed EU/US trade deal) or absolutely no effect at all.

Related: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/us/in-secret-court-vastly-broadens-powers-of-nsa.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fnational%2Findex.jsonp

Saw this the other day, along with this Orin Kerr piece asking questions. The possibility from the article that the FISA courts might have higher standards for accessing private data than public courts do is probably not the expected takeaway...

[PanH]

This is so not true. Echelon was widely used for industrial espionnage. It's even assumed it was its main use. Enercon, Lernout & Hauspie, Airbus are known targets.

Sorry but this isn't true either.

Echelon was primarily for spying on the Soviet Union. It was only after the cold war that there have been allegations of mission creep into industrial espionage.

The accusations about it's use for 'industrial espionage' are not industrial espionage in the traditional form, where information is taken from foreign companies and given to local ones. Instead it was against illegal activities conducted by businesses overseas. Certainly the Airbus affair - the only one of those I find acknowledged by all sides - was a case of their paying bribes to Saudi officials to win a contract. The American made this public information, killing the bid.

The only other form of 'industrial espionage' acknowledged by the USA are explicitly national security related; watching for trades in dual-use technology or other subtle transfers which may violate trade sanctions.

The Enercon case was alleged industrial espionage of the traditional form, where they were accused of passing technical details onto American companies who then patented them. Except that the patent in question was filed three years before the espionage was supposed to have taken place. The story then evolved to suggest the evidence used against them in court (they were found in violation of that patent) was collected using stolen information. That would be a violation of American law IMO, although slightly more consistent with the philosophy of only using such espionage against illegal behaviour.

I can't actually find the details of the L&H accusations, just charges that they were a front for German intelligence before the conviction of the CEO and founders for fraud in 2001.

Airbus : the data wasn't made public by the NSA, it was sent to the US companies (Boeing and McDonnel Douglas) which then made it public and won the contract.

Enercon : Not really. There is 2 cases of industrial espionage here. The first is the forwarding of technical details about a wind wheel. Intercepted by Echelon, and sent to Kenetech, at an unknown date. The second is Kenetech employees taking pictures of a wind wheel during the patent trial, with the help of codes provided by the NSA.
There was even another espionage case from Kenetech before, but without involvment of the NSA.

There's plenty of other case of industrial espionage by the USA/CIA/NSA, not necessarily with ECHELON. There's just some 10 cases or so that are documented through the ECHELON EU Report (there's also one of the DGSE, and another case of bribery from a French firm  )

Then again, the US gov has often used its influence to favor US companies, so it's only logical that NSA does similar things.

[DG]

Daniel Ellsberg, who leaked what became known as the Pentagon Papers in 1971 and stayed in the country, explains why he believes Snowden did the right thing in fleeing the US. He also compares what the NSA is doing to the Stasi.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html

[misko27]

The Stasi. Sigh, why can't things be judged on their own merits? The Stasi, seriously?


My grandfather, who spent time in Concentration camps, and as a defector from Communist Yugoslavia (A important one at that), would be rolling right now. I remember something he once said "You're starving? You are starving? I think not. You are hungry. When you eat nothing but scraps for months, when you are reduced to eating only the most abominable things even vaguely edible, you are starving. Now, are you starving?".


From Wikipedia:

The Stasi infiltrated almost every aspect of GDR life. In the mid-1980s, a network of IMs began growing in both German states; by the time East Germany collapsed in 1989, the Stasi employed 91,015 employees and 173,081 informants.[25][/size] About one of every 63 East Germans collaborated with the Stasi. By at least one estimate, the Stasi maintained greater surveillance over its own people than any secret police force in history.[26][/size] The Stasi employed one full-time agent for every 166 East Germans. The ratios swelled when informers were factored in: counting part-time informers, the Stasi had one informer per 6.5 people. By comparison, the [/size]Gestapo[/color][/size] employed one secret policeman per 2,000 people. This comparison led Nazi hunter [/size]Simon Wiesenthal[/color][/size] to call the Stasi even more oppressive than the Gestapo.[27][/size] Additionally, Stasi agents infiltrated and undermined West Germany's government and spy agencies.[/size]

They also installed cameras in homes. If you think the US government has anything remotely similar to this, you are actually quite possibly insane. This is a order of magnitude in difference.

At times, I believe people are more concerned with the symbolism of spying then the actuality.

[XXSockXX]

The Stasi. Sigh, why can't things be judged on their own merits? The Stasi, seriously?
....
They also installed cameras in homes. If you think the US government has anything remotely similar to this, you are actually quite possibly insane. This is a order of magnitude in difference.

At times, I believe people are more concerned with the symbolism of spying then the actuality.

- German media and politicians are comparing it to the Stasi too.

- This might be way bigger in magnitude than what the Stasi has done. The Stasi spied on 16 mio people, but there was no internet at the time. This thing is spying on the whole communication data of the US, Europe and who knows who else. This is like 1 informer per 1 person.

- Symbolism? Right this is much better since it's not our evil cousins in the East spying on us, but our nice American protectors.

- It also makes for nice slogans  :

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[misko27]

It isn't how many people they are spying on, it's how that matters.

The Stasi. Sigh, why can't things be judged on their own merits? The Stasi, seriously?
....
They also installed cameras in homes. If you think the US government has anything remotely similar to this, you are actually quite possibly insane. This is a order of magnitude in difference.

At times, I believe people are more concerned with the symbolism of spying then the actuality.

- German media and politicians are comparing it to the Stasi too.

- This might be way bigger in magnitude than what the Stasi has done. The Stasi spied on 16 mio people, but there was no internet at the time. This thing is spying on the whole communication data of the US, Europe and who knows who else. This is like 1 informer per 1 person.

- Symbolism? Right this is much better since it's not our evil cousins in the East spying on us, but our nice American protectors.

- It also makes for nice slogans  :

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, I knew that would be brought up. You have to recall, the purpose of the whole meta-data thing is that the US can't spy on everyone.  We have to accept the government might be spying on anyone (well not everyone. A lot of people, but not everyone), but logically speaking, they simply can't be spying on everyone. There is a whole lot of data that rushes past them that they will never look at. that is what this whole PRISM thing is about, and why the actual programming behind it is important. The US can spy on whoever they want, and they will, all the time, but in the world there is a deluge of information. That is why the actual Programming and design of PRISM is what I want to know more about. That is what decides what we are looking at. Otherwise, it is just numbers.

And as for the German media? Out of curiosity, might I have some sources? There are a substantial number of Americans publications that refer to so and so as Fascism, or such and such as socialism and while I doubt the problem is quite as prevalent in Germany for obvious reasons, it does happen. And Sensationalism and bad-mouthing other countries is an easy thing to do and to fall into.

I mean really, people debase the significance of the worst things that actually happened. Even if I take the assumption that the US spies on as many people as the Stasi, or even far more, it is not to the same degree, it is not in the same political clime, it is not for the same reasons. China, is far closer to what you are suggesting. There are tangible, physical results to this spying there. In Fascist anywhere, in Soviet anywhere, there were tangible, terrible results to these things. There are similarities in methods, but the comparison is completely off. No one on this Forum has ever faced any form of government repression, or hell even a response or acknowledgment, to anything said on this forum (And this forum especially.)

I think that the problem is both far more serious then some (not on this forum) have suggested, and far less serious than others (Some on this forum) have suggested. It would by far more terrible world if what the 10 to 5% most extreme percent of each side said was real, and an even more terrifying thing if we let them fix it.

[misko27]

-Oh that lag. Apologies for the Double post-

[XXSockXX]

And as for the German media? Out of curiosity, might I have some sources? There are a substantial number of Americans publications that refer to so and so as Fascism, or such and such as socialism and while I doubt the problem is quite as prevalent in Germany for obvious reasons, it does happen. And Sensationalism and bad-mouthing other countries is an easy thing to do and to fall into.

Well, I can say pretty confidently that German media and politicians tend to be less aggressive and toxic in their rhetoric than their US counterparts. Especially comparisons to fascism are rather rare, and socialism tends to be used in its original meaning. Of course there is sensationalism, but I would say that the media didn't resort to blatant badmouthing, and most politicians responded relatively moderate.

You would hear the Stasi comparison mostly in the sense of "this reminds me of Stasi methods", and mostly in opinion pieces, not in reporting. Like here.

A german member of the European Parliament accuses the US of "Stasi methods". (This is the only link in English BTW)

In a political talkshow a member of the Pirate Party calls PRISM "the Stasi's wet dream".

This article mentions unnamed politicians making cold war and Stasi comparisons. The cold war comparison was our minister of justice IIRC, she was the most outspoken cabinet member about this.

An opinion piece entitled "Only no new Stasi" (might substitute "only" with "hopefully" or "please").

This article is critical of all the Stasi comparisons used in other articles, saying that it trivializes the Stasi.

A commentary from one of the most important tv news shows cites Ellsbergs "United Stasi of America". The commentary itself, while very critical of PRISM does not make the comparison.

In an interview, President Gauck said that PRISM was not the same thing as the Stasi having cabinets full of files with data they collected. (He was in charge of the archive of these files before becoming president.) In response a newssite showed a map comparing PRISM and Stasi data in square km of files.

A former Stasi officer says PRISM would have been a dream come true.

In this article about historical US espionage in Germany it's just present in the picture. The picture shows an art installation/projection on the US embassy.

Generally speaking, the comparison has come up a lot. The more serious and differentiated the article is, the less likely is there to be a direct comparison.
The examples are what I found with a quick Google search, the cited sites/sources are neither especially sensationalist nor strongly politically biased.

[SalmonGod]

You claim that the methods may be similar but they're still not comparable because the depth/order of magnitude to which those methods are used and the purposes behind them are not the same.

First, let's compare the order of magnitude.

From Wikipedia:

The Stasi employed one full-time agent for every 166 East Germans.

As such, there is one “terrorism liaison officer” for every 8,125 residents of Arizona

Now factor in three things: 

1.  TLO officers are only one part of the surveillance apparatus.  According to the report, they're the people who most directly perform digital research on individuals and distribute their findings among other departments through the fusion centers they operate in.  So they seem like the most directly comparable to what you'd think of as an agent informant, but they are not the only ones.

2.  It's a much larger population being monitored, so maintaining a comparable ratio of informants to what the Stasi did is not realistic, but....

3.  it's also not necessary, because the technology now being employed makes the whole process much more efficient and powerful.  Basic digital information filtering methods make identification and research of persons of interest ridiculously easy.  One full-time TLO agent per 8,000 people is probably just as effective as one ground-level informant per 166 people.

As for the comparison of intent... the above information is from a detailed report about how the surveillance infrastructure set up in the name of counter-terrorism was utilized as a vital tool in shutting down a peaceful political activist movement. 

No, we don't have concentration camps.  We just have the largest prison population of any nation in the history of the planet, and a horrible justice system that basically allows police to ruin anyone's life on a whim.  Why have obvious political prisoners when anyone can be named a criminal instead?

Note:  I don't really know much about the Stasi.  This post was only formulated based on the information you presented as differentiating the Stasi from surveillance in the U.S.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Note:  I don't really know much about the Stasi.  This post was only formulated based on the information you presented as differentiating the Stasi from surveillance in the U.S.

I suggest looking into that a little further then before you continue this tirade. The Stasi were a civil surveillance and dissident execution group. I take high offense to the insinuation that the PRISM and US metadata collection is anywhere near the methods utilized by the psychological terrorists of the Stasi.

My father fled divided Germany thanks to the Stasi, so I can tell you they're not as benign as the US. I remember him telling me how they found two camera holes in his Synagogue's bathroom.

[Scoops Novel]

Salmongod's point of necessity, and pragmatism, is worth bearing in mind. Also, we can either distinguish between surveillance and other methods, or we cannot. I'd prefer the former.