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[TheWetSheep]

Oh hey. I guess it's time for me to vote, but I'll hold off for a bit yet. I'm leaning towards downvoting, though.


Everyone: What were you thinking Day 1? Why did you decide to go with a randomly generated team with only feeble attempts at scumhunting?

If my math is correct a randomly generated team of three has a mere 17.8% chance of being spy-free.

Dariush:

No matter how much time we spend on the first day, nobody will be physically able to prove his or her towniness any more than we knew at the beginning due to lack of confirmable actions. The only thing scum would do differently may be communicating with their fellow spies to try and set up the rules for actions when there are multiple spies on the team, but if their fellows can see the question, so will the rest of us. Therefore, this possibility can be safely discarded. So, how would we actually judge the possibility of a given person being town during the first day? We can only see the perceived scumminess of something said by them, which, let's be honest, will usually be newbies regardless of their alignment. On the other hand, scum can manipulate the public opinion towards choosing one of them, while the town cannot do the same due to not knowing anyone's alignment.

What happened to traditional scumhunting? And why did you not include yourself on the team? It would have made a lot more sense to put you on it and randomly pick the other two, bumping the probability up to 28.5%(if you are a rebel, which I kind of doubt).

The thing that confuses me is the success of the mission though.

[Nerjin]

Oh hey. I guess it's time for me to vote, but I'll hold off for a bit yet. I'm leaning towards downvoting, though.


Everyone: What were you thinking Day 1? Why did you decide to go with a randomly generated team with only feeble attempts at scumhunting?

If my math is correct a randomly generated team of three has a mere 17.8% chance of being spy-free.

Why are you leaning towards a no?

But to your question: I was thinking that a random team is a legitimate idea. Until the first mission is over there is no concrete evidence for anything. Now we at least know a few things and get a better feel on the people who voted for and against it. At least that's how I see it. When you mention the numbers it does seem a little feeble of a plan. But it's a bit late for that.

[TheWetSheep]

Because I don't trust Dariush and therefore I don't trust that team. But I might upvote anyway because the last mission succeeded. It really confuses me; I was expecting it to fail.

Sure, we don't have anything concrete to go on, but it's the same case in Day 1 of almost every single mafia game. RVS wasn't even over by day end.

[TheWetSheep]

Also, what do you all think? Is it more beneficial to state how we're going to vote beforehand, or let it be a mystery?

I think it's better to not say, since saying lets the spies know how to vote to blend in, or whether they can sway the vote in their favour.

[Nerjin]

Because I don't trust Dariush and therefore I don't trust that team. But I might upvote anyway because the last mission succeeded. It really confuses me; I was expecting it to fail.

I was expecting Microsoft to not be morons but that doesn't mean it wasn't true. Here are some questions for you:

1. Why don't you trust Dariush? Please cite some places where he has acted untrustworthy.

2. Why does you distrust of Dariush affect the team that doesn't involve him in any way?

3. Why were you expecting it to fail?

4. Just for fun: Who would YOU have sent day 1 instead? How would you have chosen these people?

Also, what do you all think? Is it more beneficial to state how we're going to vote beforehand, or let it be a mystery?

I think it's better to not say, since saying lets the spies know how to vote to blend in, or whether they can sway the vote in their favour.

I think it's better to state before-hand so that way the town knows how the vote will end up and why. Just voting in secret hides information that the town will get anyways. Plus this way if someone switches without telling everyone else you know that they have some sort of reason for doing so than just going in blind. [See Ford's gambit in VLR:1 for an example]

Though you do raise a good point and one that I agree with. Stating votes outright shows the spies some information. But I think that giving the town that information outweighs the cons of giving spies this information. Plus they'd blend in anyway just based on the general feel of the town.

[TheWetSheep]

Because I don't trust Dariush and therefore I don't trust that team. But I might upvote anyway because the last mission succeeded. It really confuses me; I was expecting it to fail.

I was expecting Microsoft to not be morons but that doesn't mean it wasn't true. Here are some questions for you:

1. Why don't you trust Dariush? Please cite some places where he has acted untrustworthy.

2. Why does you distrust of Dariush affect the team that doesn't involve him in any way?

3. Why were you expecting it to fail?

4. Just for fun: Who would YOU have sent day 1 instead? How would you have chosen these people?

1. Because he chose a team in post 1 without any attempt at scumhunting, and because he didn't include himself in that team. There is no reason to not put yourself on the team at this stage if you're a rebel.

2. Because it includes the three members that were on the team he chose for Mission 1.

3. Because it was randomly generated without any attempt at scumhunting.

4. Myself, obviously. There hasn't been a whole lot to base anything off of so far, but who seems most trustworthy? Tiruin, Griffinpup, and maybe you and Shinigami.

[Nerjin]

Spoiler:  Wetsheep Quotes (click to show/hide)

Because I don't trust Dariush and therefore I don't trust that team. But I might upvote anyway because the last mission succeeded. It really confuses me; I was expecting it to fail.

I was expecting Microsoft to not be morons but that doesn't mean it wasn't true. Here are some questions for you:

1. Why don't you trust Dariush? Please cite some places where he has acted untrustworthy.

2. Why does you distrust of Dariush affect the team that doesn't involve him in any way?

3. Why were you expecting it to fail?

4. Just for fun: Who would YOU have sent day 1 instead? How would you have chosen these people?

1. Because he chose a team in post 1 without any attempt at scumhunting, and because he didn't include himself in that team. There is no reason to not put yourself on the team at this stage if you're a rebel.

2. Because it includes the three members that were on the team he chose for Mission 1.

3. Because it was randomly generated without any attempt at scumhunting.

4. Myself, obviously. There hasn't been a whole lot to base anything off of so far, but who seems most trustworthy? Tiruin, Griffinpup, and maybe you and Shinigami.

1. He claimed to be doing pure random. Sure I can see your point but I don't see why that would inspire mistrust.

2. Three members who were on a succesful mission.

3. Fair enough.

4. Alrighty time for a bit of a "jerk" question here: Why do you trust the players that you mentioned?

[TheWetSheep]

I got those people basically by process of elimination. I don't trust Dariush. NQT is playing up the "I play purely by logic, not by behavioral analysis" card quite a bit more than usual, and the last time I saw him do that he was scum. Remuthra I'm suspicious of, again because he's not wanting to be on the team, and because Dariush is pushing him onto the team instead of himself.

Also, I've played this game in RL before and some things of note:

On the first mission there were almost certainly either 0 or 2-3 spies. If you're the only spy on a mission of 3 there's really no point to not sabotage.

It's also very advantageous as a spy to act suspicious of your scumbuddies, more so than in mafia, since you have a good reason to downvote teams that include both of you and to not include them when it's your turn to be the mission leader.

[Dariush]

The thing that confuses me is the success of the mission though.

Oh, does it? So how many of your scumbuddies were on the team?

I have explained why scumhunting on D1 in this format of the game is completely impractical right above randomrolling my team. You are scum for ignoring it.

Dariush is pushing [Remuthra] onto the team instead of himself.

You are scum for lying. I would have voted for any team that consisted of [D1+anybody who isn't me] and I said so. I didn't push for Remuthra's inclusion at any point.

4. Myself, obviously. There hasn't been a whole lot to base anything off of so far, but who seems most trustworthy? Tiruin, Griffinpup, and maybe you and Shinigami.

So, instead of randomrolling, you would have used subjective reasoning you got from other games, since there is nothing to base your opinions on here (before D1 team lock, that is). Which is almost as random (because 'trustworthy' people are equally likely to be spies), but gives scum leader space to manipulate the results. And yet you somehow consider this scumhuntingless approach superior to my scumhuntingless approach. What a hypocrite.

[TheWetSheep]

The thing that confuses me is the success of the mission though.

Oh, does it? So how many of your scumbuddies were on the team?

I have explained why scumhunting on D1 in this format of the game is completely impractical right above randomrolling my team. You are scum for ignoring it.

I read it. I don't agree. How is it different from day 1 of any daystart mafia game?

Dariush is pushing [Remuthra] onto the team instead of himself.

You are scum for lying. I would have voted for any team that consisted of [D1+anybody who isn't me] and I said so. I didn't push for Remuthra's inclusion at any point.

OK. I should read more carefully. But you did say this:

Dariush: If this first mission fails, who's your scumpick? How would you answer accusations against you?

...this is worded like you know that the mission is going to fail and are already planning to accuse me of that. So, to answer your question, in that case my first scumpick would be you.

Do you still find this suspicious?

4. Myself, obviously. There hasn't been a whole lot to base anything off of so far, but who seems most trustworthy? Tiruin, Griffinpup, and maybe you and Shinigami.

So, instead of randomrolling, you would have used subjective reasoning you got from other games, since there is nothing to base your opinions on here (before D1 team lock, that is). Which is almost as random (because 'trustworthy' people are equally likely to be spies), but gives scum leader space to manipulate the results. And yet you somehow consider this scumhuntingless approach superior to my scumhuntingless approach. What a hypocrite.

Again, it's just like D1 mafia(or could have been, if we had had an unofficial vote).

And you didn't answer my question, scum. Why didn't you include yourself?

[birdy51]

3/4 of the votes have been received.

Voting will end on Wednesday at 10PM EST.

[TheWetSheep]

Dariush is pushing [Remuthra] onto the team instead of himself.

You are scum for lying. I would have voted for any team that consisted of [D1+anybody who isn't me] and I said so. I didn't push for Remuthra's inclusion at any point.

OK. I should read more carefully. But you did say this:

Dariush: If this first mission fails, who's your scumpick? How would you answer accusations against you?

...this is worded like you know that the mission is going to fail and are already planning to accuse me of that. So, to answer your question, in that case my first scumpick would be you.

Do you still find this suspicious?

Actually, this is a stupid question. Ignore it.

[Nerjin]

I might be wrong sheep but... You still haven't posted your vote yet have you?

I don't think people are gonna come in here talking due to the fact that they've all already voted on the mission and are unlikely to change it until something happens.

Then again I might be wrong.

[Tiruin]

Yeah, I haven't voted yet because of lots of RL stuff >_>

Hold on, reading up.

[Dariush]

I read it. I don't agree. How is it different from day 1 of any daystart mafia game?

Unlike a normal game, the scum cannot communicate. They cannot discuss whom to attack. They only begin to differ from townies after the first team has been locked.

Do you still find this suspicious?

Yep. I still get a feeling that Remuthra expected the team to fail, and there is a spy lying low. Considering he was one of those voting to replace himself with me on D2 team, that feeling got intensified.

So, instead of randomrolling, you would have used subjective reasoning you got from other games, since there is nothing to base your opinions on here (before D1 team lock, that is). Which is almost as random (because 'trustworthy' people are equally likely to be spies), but gives scum leader space to manipulate the results. And yet you somehow consider this scumhuntingless approach superior to my scumhuntingless approach. What a hypocrite.

Again, it's just like D1 mafia(or could have been, if we had had an unofficial vote).

You completely ignored my argument. I said that our approaches were almost identical, but mine left less room for manipulation. You... uh... gave a completely unrelated answer.

And you didn't answer my question, scum. Why didn't you include yourself?

No, Luke, YOU are scum!

I explained why I don't want to be on team in #83. You're 'missing' a whole lot of this game, you know.