Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[10ebbor10]

Humble Indie Bundle.

And yeah, as said before. Day 1 stats are not always reliable.

Genuine version: 214 users

Cracked version: at least 3104 users

[Levi]

I tend to think piracy is more of an accessibility thing than a money thing, and I'm not the only one.  I also agree that most people who pirate games probably wouldn't have spent money on the game if the piracy option wasn't there. 

There is no moral right in pirating games, but I really don't think its quite as bad as companies claim.

[kingfisher1112]

And 10% of people reportedly pirated the HIB. 10%. It impacts more than you think

It seems to me that you're buying the industry's kool aid of "Each pirated copy equals one lost sale!". Which is simply not true.

It's still a kick in the face to charity, and indie startups. While it may not equal one lost sale, it may mean one per 3. There is at least 1 lost sale among that 10%. Instead of paying a single cent, they decided to pirate it. Tell me how that's justifiable morally?

May I point out that first off: Pirating seems to be massively overstated in the damage it does to profits.
Second: Many pirates cannot afford the games, or buy them after pirating. Not saying all of them do, or, necessarily a majority, but that will have an impact on the statistics, because if you can't afford it, then you aren't gonna buy it, so they actually lose no money there. And if you buy it afterwards, they get the money anyway, but the statistics will say they didn't.
Third: The DRM causes many people to pirate, because they can't play the game normally, due to an intermittent internet or the like.

Piracy isn't as black and white as many people would have you believe.

So thievery is okay as long as people can't afford it? Hell, that sports car looked mighty nice.
And 10% of people reportedly pirated the HIB. 10%. It impacts more than you think, and if everybody adopts the visage that pirates are fighting nobly against big business evil companies, then nothing can be done.
In the case of GDT:
http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/
93.6%. Ninety three frickin percent. Those forum posts are gold. So pirates are poisoning the industry, with this jagged circle of " Pirate pirates, game devs make DRM, People turn to Piracy" the responsibility and blame of DRM does not lie on developers, but it does on Pirates. Thieves who want shit for free.

theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.[

Piracy=/=theft. The original owner sustains no damage, except for a hypothetical loss of profits.

It's an copyright infringement, and illegal copying of information. Not theft however.

It's still a crime, and it's still illegal. No matter how it's dressed up, of people did not pirate games intensive DRM systems would not exist. Piracy is unjustifiable.

Humble Indie Bundle.

And yeah, as said before. Day 1 stats are not always reliable.

Genuine version: 214 users

Cracked version: at least 3104 users

It's still indicative of how people want to get free stuff, and take to piracy as a way to justify it and get free stuff.

Now lets be honest here, Kingfisher. Pirates are often dicks, doing dick things, but they aren't thieves - they aren't depriving anyone of anything they possess, which is an important attribute of thieving.

That said, I've never had anyone pirate any of my games, and I don't see it happening anytime soon, and in my opinion the damage the pirates have done is minimal compared to the damage the coporate rightsholders have done to, you know, things that are actually legitimately important, like the rule of law and whatnot.

But I honestly don't care if they stuff their games full of DRM. Better than abusing and twisting and corrupting the legal system, imo.

What most people don't realize is who piracy damages and how. They are stupid enough to think it hurts the people developing the product that got pirated (hah!). No, that's dumb, if they couldn't pirate your shit they'd pirate something else instead, and that's where the real danger comes from. It's not the $50 games that lose out to piracy, it's their $10 competitors that actually WOULD have been bought instead.

They are still criminals. Criminals who are glorified as heroes, fighting The Man^TM

So thievery is okay as long as people can't afford it? Hell, that sports car looked mighty nice.

Well strawmanned. I never said it was acceptable, I said that they'd not get a profit anyway, so they basically lose nothing in profits, as the person wouldn't have bought it anyways.

10% of people reportedly pirated the HIB.

The HIB?
No idea what the HIB is, as that's what turned up through google. Care to explain what the HIB is?

93.6%. Ninety three frickin percent. Those forum posts are gold. So pirates are poisoning the industry, with this jagged circle of " Pirate pirates, game devs make DRM, People turn to Piracy" the responsibility and blame of DRM does not lie on developers, but it does on Pirates. Thieves who want shit for free.

One individual case is not the trend.

Just because game X has 93.6% piracy, not everywhere is.
A piracy rate of 10% is fairly high, but if you're not earning enough money to cover that, then you're probably not getting enough money to keep he company going, anyway. And, as Poo said, each pirated copy =/= a lost sale. It may not have been a sale in the first place, or the person may buy it afterwards, anyway.

It may not be the trend, but it is indicative of the nature of pirates. The whole " DRM is forcing innocent gamers into piracy" hogwash is brought about in arguments to make pirates seem like every men, fighting the aforementioned man, but they are cheating the system, not caring about who gets disadvantaged.

The HIB stands for humble indie bundle, a bundle of games on a pay what you want system ranging from a thousand dollars to one cent. Proceeds go to Child's Play, basically an institution donating free games to hospitals, and the devs.

[Eagleon]

I'm curious where you got the 10% from. Which bundle? Over how long a period? Because of the nature of the thing, these people might just be getting it for one or two games in the mix because they already have the others, which kind of drops off the impact significantly. And if you're talking about all the bundles together, big surprise. HIB rereleases their games mixed in with one or two new ones all the time. I think it's actually kind of shady - the charity isn't the only one getting money from it.

[kingfisher1112]

You mean to say that those people that cannot play games due to their internet frequently going offline and so being unable to play their always-online games are bullshitting? All of them?

So they'll download a large file that deletes itself when interrupted!

I'm curious where you got the 10% from. Which bundle? Over how long a period? Because of the nature of the thing, these people might just be getting it for one or two games in the mix because they already have the others, which kind of drops off the impact significantly. And if you're talking about all the bundles together, big surprise. HIB rereleases their games mixed in with one or two new ones all the time. I think it's actually kind of shady - the charity isn't the only one getting money from it.

One of the older ones... Can't remember which. It was definitely early. Maybe the original? It's from a reliable gaming magazine I read at the time, with an article on piracy. It was definitely 10% and HIB though.

[GlyphGryph]

kingfisher, I don't think pirates are heroes. I think most of them are entitled and immature. But I also don't think they're evil, and while what they're doing is often against the law (it isn't always and everywhere), I don't think they are particularly evil either. Just... spoiled, entitled brats, basically.

When the big corps decide to respond by being actively and maliciously evil, even if it's technically legal, that's worse. It's even worse when it's only technically legal because they corrupted the law to allow them to do something that SHOULD be illegal. If anyone is to blame for making pirates look like heroes, it's the companies that use them as an excuse to fuck us all over.

cheating the system, not caring about who gets disadvantaged.

is essentially the MO of every single person on every side of the issue. When everyone is the bad guy, I'm not going to root for anyone, but I'm certainly going to hope that the more dangerous, more actively immoral party fails regardless. Especially since evidence indicates that every single one of these big corporations and the groups they pull together to "fight the evils of piracy" actively pirate other's works themselves.

So here's the question to you: Yes, pirates are bad. But why should I care? Entitled people aren't going to go away, and the damage they do is minimal. I'm much more inclined to fight against the actual threats to both effective government and sensible, who actually pose a real risk to myself and those I care about and the country I care about, and if that means I end up allying with a bunch of entitled brats, well, I'm willing to do that. I don't care if they're only supporting the right things for completely selfish reasons, if they end up supporting the right things I'm going to support them in turn until they stop. So groups like the various Pirate Parties effectively have my vote locked in. So, again... why should I care about pirates or piracy?

I mean, come on, most of the people producing the work have proven themselves time and time again just as entitled and immoral as the pirates, if not more so, and they are willing to actively make my life worse to justify their entitlement. Do you really want to side with those people any more than you want to side with the pirates?

So they'll download a large file that deletes itself when interrupted!

What... what does this mean? What are you talking about?

[kingfisher1112]

kingfisher, I don't think pirates are heroes. I think most of them are entitled and immature. But I also don't think they're evil, and while what they're doing is often against the law (it isn't always and everywhere), I don't think they are particularly evil either. Just... spoiled, entitled brats, basically.

When the big corps decide to respond by being actively and maliciously evil, even if it's technically legal, that's worse. It's even worse when it's only technically legal because they corrupted the law to allow them to do something that SHOULD be illegal. If anyone is to blame for making pirates look like heroes, it's the companies that use them as an excuse to fuck us all over.

cheating the system, not caring about who gets disadvantaged.

is essentially the MO of every single person on every side of the issue. When everyone is the bad guy, I'm not going to root for anyone, but I'm certainly going to hope that the more dangerous, more actively immoral party fails regardless. Especially since evidence indicates that every single one of these big corporations and the groups they pull together to "fight the evils of piracy" actively pirate other's works themselves.

So here's the question to you: Yes, pirates are bad. But why should I care? Entitled people aren't going to go away, and the damage they do is minimal. I'm much more inclined to fight against the actual threats to both effective government and sensible, who actually pose a real risk to myself and those I care about and the country I care about, and if that means I end up allying with a bunch of entitled brats, well, I'm willing to do that. I don't care if they're only supporting the right things for completely selfish reasons, if they end up supporting the right things I'm going to support them in turn until they stop. So groups like the various Pirate Parties effectively have my vote locked in. So, again... why should I care about pirates or piracy?

I mean, come on, most of the people producing the work have proven themselves time and time again just as entitled and immoral as the pirates, if not more so, and they are willing to actively make my life worse to justify their entitlement. Do you really want to side with those people any more than you want to side with the pirates?

So they'll download a large file that deletes itself when interrupted!

What... what does this mean? What are you talking about?

I was talking about how people have problems with always on DRM due to crap Internet will somehow move to piracy to stop that.

Why should you care and what should you do? Why should you care? Because these people have been making corporations force their hands and do these things. Do you know how you make entitlement go away? Shun them. If we, as an Internet society, shunned pirates then you would get rid of first the people disadvantaged by DRM. Second the 13 year old hardcore people, and finally get rid of the rest leaving only the absolute core, destroying most piracy. Most piracy sources can only be kept afloat by ads or personal fortune, and if you can eliminate the first then the second will run out. If we actually make piracy a problem for all, not DRM a problem for all, than DRM will stop. Remove the source, not the symptom. DRM is a symptom of the piracy disease. Remove piracy, most DRM will go. Hell, piracy is not a modern issue, brought about by big evil companies. Back in the very dawn of gaming there were pirates, and these first pirates have bred the pirate culture of today. People turning to piracy because they were disadvantaged, makes up a minority of the true asshole free stuff crowd. If you help remove piracy, then DRM will be a thing of the past.

You mean to say that those people that cannot play games due to their internet frequently going offline and so being unable to play their always-online games are bullshitting? All of them?

So they'll download a large file that deletes itself when interrupted!

You realise that they may in fact, have internet connections that work fine for, say, a day, then crashes for several, right?

Or they may want free stuff! Wahey, back to square 1.

[kingfisher1112]

Yes. Because everyone that wants to play a game but cannot is a freeloader.

Well done, you went flying back to square 1 via a completely irrelevant argument!

EDIT: for the record, no, I don't see pirates as some amazing force for good, nor have I pirated a game, but I think the 'evil' is massively overstated.

I want to do plenty of things. I can either work towards getting that thing, or I don't get the thing. Piracy because you don't have the money is like cheating on a test. I want to get a good job, but I can't be bothered to work towards getting a good job, so I'll cheat.

[penguinofhonor]

These past few days have been some of the most convincing Wii U advertising I've ever seen.

[GlyphGryph]

So you're saying it's all right for these companies to fuck people over because other people in other places were entitled assholes, and they aren't in any way responsible for their own actions?

Seriously, dude, you live in a really terrible world. Get a grip on a sense of responsibility. No one's hand has ever been "forced" by piracy. (In a similar vein, no one has ever been "forced" to pirate either, to my knowledge). It's a bullshit proposition that exists solely in an attempt to justify terrible behavior. Stop make excuses for and being an apologist for wrongdoers, it makes you look just as bad as, if not worse than, the people you are criticizing. I'm a game developer and creative producer myself, and if anyone who works with me tried to feed me that sort of bullshit about how they had to do terrible things to our audience because their hand was forced by the terrible pirates, I'd jettison them for being an entitled, idiotic whiner.

There are some DRM-esque technologies that aren't bad, and there are perfectly valid reasons to adopt them, but saying the pirates "forced your hand" is madness of the most pathetic sort.

I was talking about how people have problems with always on DRM due to crap Internet will somehow move to piracy to stop that.

I... still don't understand then. Pirates don't download big files that get interrupted by crappy internet. Most of them download via torrents, which are by definition only capable of transferring very very small files, and it resends them if they fail, and is a GREAT way to get software if you have crappy internet. (I've known several companies and individuals who distribute their software via torrent for this very reason)

[10ebbor10]

On another note, the people who pirate the Humble Bundle (which can be bought for a single cent), most likely don't have the capability to pay for stuff online.

[kingfisher1112]

Yes. Because everyone that wants to play a game but cannot is a freeloader.

Well done, you went flying back to square 1 via a completely irrelevant argument!

EDIT: for the record, no, I don't see pirates as some amazing force for good, nor have I pirated a game, but I think the 'evil' is massively overstated.

I want to do plenty of things. I can either work towards getting that thing, or I don't get the thing. Piracy because you don't have the money is like cheating on a test. I want to get a good job, but I can't be bothered to work towards getting a good job, so I'll cheat.

Different. Closer to 'I can't get a good grade because nobody can give me one due to the current economic situation!'

You're telling people to earn money they can't get.

So then don't get it. It's entitlement if you believe that you deserve a game, regardless of economic climate. And, if you can't afford a game why can you afford a decent rig and good enough Internet to download large files?

So you're saying it's all right for these companies to fuck people over because other people in other places were entitled assholes, and they aren't in any way responsible for their own actions?

Seriously, dude, you live in a really terrible world. Get a grip on a sense of responsibility. No one's hand has ever been "forced" by piracy. (In a similar vein, no one has ever been "forced" to pirate either, to my knowledge). It's a bullshit proposition that exists solely in an attempt to justify terrible behavior. Stop make excuses for and being an apologist for wrongdoers, it makes you look just as bad as, if not worse than, the people you are criticizing. I'm a game developer and creative producer myself, and if anyone who works with me tried to feed me that sort of bullshit about how they had to do terrible things to our audience because their hand was forced by the terrible pirates, I'd jettison them for being an entitled, idiotic whiner.

There are some DRM-esque technologies that aren't bad, and there are perfectly valid reasons to adopt them, but saying the pirates "forced your hand" is madness of the most pathetic sort.

I was talking about how people have problems with always on DRM due to crap Internet will somehow move to piracy to stop that.

I... still don't understand then. Pirates don't download big files that get interrupted by crappy internet. Most of them download via torrents, which are by definition only capable of transferring very very small files, and it resends them if they fail, and is a GREAT way to get software if you have crappy internet. (I've known several companies and individuals who distribute their software via torrent for this very reason)

Oh, so companies just started DRM to screw over customers, and pirates don't factor into the equation? Pirates are the source of the problem. At the beginning, and end. Since you obviously can't stop buying these games, or get everyone ever to stop buying them, the only option is peer pressure. Game companies are only asshole in response to assholes, and the end user is in the middle, getting screwed over again and again. You should be shunning pirates, showing them the error of their ways, not whining about how companies are evil. If you reasoned with a human, instead of trying to take on companies practises, you'd be much more successful. But no, that's too much effort. You just think it's only the companies fault, and that you can change those entitled assholes but not the other entitled assholes. Because at the end of the day, attacking pirates who give us nothing is better than attacking companies who give us something.

On another note, the people who pirate the Humble Bundle (which can be bought for a single cent), most likely don't have the capability to pay for stuff online.

So that's justified? Is that the reasoning? That spitting in the face of charity is preferable to mailing a ten dollar note to the organisers, and negotiating something? Dot hey deserve the ability to pay for this game?

[kingfisher1112]

I'm dropping out of the argument for two reasons:
1) the analogies are moving quite rapidly into weird places
2) neither of us is convincing the other.

That's fine. Well, good luck to you mate! See ya.

[kingfisher1112]

I'm dropping out of the argument for two reasons:
1) the analogies are moving quite rapidly into weird places
2) neither of us is convincing the other.

That's fine. Well, good luck to you mate! See ya.

I get the feeling you're trying to bait me into replying, either consciously or unconsciously.

EDIT: hang on, I just replied!

GAAH!

Nah. Just saying goodbye, even though it's completely unnecessary on an Internet forum.

[Leafsnail]

Oh yeah, Game Dev Tycoon. Remember that? It schooled them as to why the fuck they would pirate an indie startup's game simply because they are thieves.

That was probably a publicity stunt to promote a game that was a blatant ripoff of another game for 3 times the price