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[Ozyton]

I'm not very educated in the matter but I'm fairly sure adding backwards compatibility isn't as simple as saying 'okay it's backwards compatible now.'

[Bdthemag]

I'm not very educated in the matter but I'm fairly sure adding backwards compatibility isn't as simple as saying 'okay it's backwards compatible now.'

It's difficult, sure. But companies aren't doing it because it'd be too expensive. They're doing it because they want to maximize immediate profits, and make money off of "HD Remake" games that are slowly becoming a growing trend.

[freeformschooler]

I'm not very educated in the matter but I'm fairly sure adding backwards compatibility isn't as simple as saying 'okay it's backwards compatible now.'

As I understand it, backwards compatibility generally involves shoving a bunch of the old system into the new system (which is why your Wii is restricted to gamecube functionality while playing gamecube games: a gamecube's running them).

[alexandertnt]

I'm not very educated in the matter but I'm fairly sure adding backwards compatibility isn't as simple as saying 'okay it's backwards compatible now.'

It's difficult, sure. But companies aren't doing it because it'd be too expensive. They're doing it because they want to maximize immediate profits, and make money off of "HD Remake" games that are slowly becoming a growing trend.

Do you know that or are you guessing that? As the consoles become more sophisticated pieces of hardware, it starts to cost more and more to make the backwards compatable. It might not be technically plausable to make a reasonable Xbox360/PS3 emulator for their respective upgrades, and the other option (adding in the hardware from the previous generation) would likely be quite expensive (xbox/ps3 still not exactly cheap) and make it difficult to compete if their competitor did not do the same.

[hemmingjay]

I guarantee you at this point, the Xbox One isn't going to get many customers who aren't the softcore/casual crowd. So far, the only exclusives that we can assume are going to be on it are the generic shooters, and seeing as how the past years haven't had much in terms of unique Xbox exclusives I doubt we'll see many.

The thing is though regarding PC's, sharing isn't as big as an issue since games often don't run for the full $60 retail price. Games still do on the PC, but those are usually from the publishers who are idiots and think that a digital copy of a game should be the same price as a hard copy. The ease of accessibility and the lower price outweighs the lack of sharing features.

I hope you are exaggerating for the sake of your argument against the Xbox and don't actual believe that to be factual.

[Bdthemag]

I guarantee you at this point, the Xbox One isn't going to get many customers who aren't the softcore/casual crowd. So far, the only exclusives that we can assume are going to be on it are the generic shooters, and seeing as how the past years haven't had much in terms of unique Xbox exclusives I doubt we'll see many.

The thing is though regarding PC's, sharing isn't as big as an issue since games often don't run for the full $60 retail price. Games still do on the PC, but those are usually from the publishers who are idiots and think that a digital copy of a game should be the same price as a hard copy. The ease of accessibility and the lower price outweighs the lack of sharing features.

I hope you are exaggerating for the sake of your argument against the Xbox and don't actual believe that to be factual.

I'm not exaggerating in the slightest. Name one core/hardcore game that's been an Xbox 360 exclusive.

[alexandertnt]

Whats your definition of a "core" or "hardcore" game? The definitions tend to vary between people...

[Knight of Fools]

It's a plethora of issues that combine into one hideous, mind melting beast that makes backwards compatibility less enticing for big businesses.

On the PS3, they used to include an extra processor so you could run PS2 games. They since stopped, partly because it was cheaper, but also because the PS3 had the new digital store come out where you could buy all the old PS2 games digitally. The downloadable PS2 games would be optimized for the new system, unlike the disc version. Boom, Sony saves money and makes money. Expect to see PS3 games on sale in the PS4 digital marketplace some time in the future.

I imagine the same will be true for the Xbone.

Games are also running off of a completely different OS in new systems. It's like trying to run the Windows version of a program on a Mac, except the system is designed to deny any game it doesn't recognize as "Xbone Disc" or "PS4 Disc" as part of its DRM.

Another factor is that the hardware architecture itself changes, and these games are so optimized towards a certain build that you never know what problems are going to come up. If you're lucky the game might run, but there's no guarantee, and a butt load of testing would have to be done for hundreds of games to ensure that it works across the board. It's like trying to run a DOS game on Windows 8, except the DOS game was so optimized towards a particular DOS computer that it screws up in places you wouldn't expect on the new OS.

The easiest way to fix that is to include a different, older processor and GPU, but that's more expensive. You could do what the Wii did and include an emulator, but that requires disk space and man hours without a guarantee of success across the board. You're essentially spending money on something that will, at most, earn you a few kudos, but kudos don't generally earn you millions of dollars.


The easiest, cheapest thing to do is port previous generation games over later as an HD remake or "download only" version that's been ported over to the new hardware. Notice that Microsoft also introduced a smaller, more expensive 360. You can bet that they'll cycle out the old, cheaper 360 shortly after its release. There's some more money to be had from the folks willing to spend it so their $2,000 gaming collections doesn't become worthless.


It is possible to make a system that's fully backwards compatible. It's just not profitable.

[Bdthemag]

A casual gamer is someone who exclusively plays games that are basically time-wasters, most smartphone games are like this. Not much depth, and are fun yet unrewarding. The softcore gamer is someone who plays the AAA titles that come out every year, and don't really expand their interests out of the heavily marketed games that come out each year . A core gamer is someone who keeps themselves informed of game related news, and their interests expand beyond the average AAA game. These are games like Dark Souls, Devil May Cry, Metal Gear Solid, and games that while they're well-known in the gaming community if you ask the "average" gamer in real life they'll be oblivious to it. A hardcore gamer is someone who plays games that are very hard to get into, often obscure, and require a lot of skill and devotion. This includes games like Dwarf Fortress, simulator games, and even core/softcore games played to an extreme-skill level.

I think we can all agree on this definition, right? What I'm saying is, that Microsoft doesn't want to cater to the core/hardcore crowd anymore. It's not as if they used to, but they at least payed attention to them as an important "minority." Now, it's very clear they believe the best way to make money is to cater to the softcore/casual gamers. They don't stay as informed as a gaming hobbyist would, and therefore are easier to sell to, and easier to market to since they wont necessarily know or care about when the publisher does something wrong. Microsoft clearly alienated a majority of core/hardcore gamers, besides the fanboys of course, and either they act fast and fix their mistake or just do what they were going to do in the first place, make a console for the casual crowd.

It's not as if the PS4 isn't going to do something similar to this either, there's a clear gravitation towards the casual market nowadays. It's just that the other companies are pretending that they're not better than Microsoft is.

[alexandertnt]

Okay then, I agree that they are focusing on your definition of a casual gamer. But I dont see what the problem with that is. Then again, I am not someone who plays games for some sort of "reward" or min-maxing/to practice...

you could make much more money by catering to a niche crowd.

If what you say is true, than there should be strong market forces encouraging Microsoft/Sony to cater to these niche crowds.

[Bdthemag]

Okay then, I agree that they are focusing on your definition of a casual gamer. But I dont see what the problem with that is. Then again, I am not someone who plays games for some sort of "reward" or min-maxing/to practice...

you could make much more money by catering to a niche crowd.

ppene
If what you say is true, than there should be strong market forces encouraging Microsoft/Sony to cater to these niche crowds.

The problem is, it's marketing to the lowest common denominator. The same thing happened before the game market crash. Companies were pumping out shovelware, and trying to sell games to EVERYONE. Companies collapsed once they couldn't make profits anymore, and from that rose multiple companies catering to small crowds of gamers who wanted something specific. They made a lot of money because they had a devote fanbase that loved them because they made a game they wanted, and now many of those companies are now big publishers and game studios nowadays. What's happening now is very similar to what was happening before the video game market crash. Quality is rapidly declining in order to maximize profit, this will be profitable in the short term but there will come a point where even the casual market will grow sick of it and just stop playing video games. Since the companies are already too heavily invested in catering to a specific market, once that market disappears they'll be unable to switch so rapidly, and they'll go under.

Oh, and core/hardcore crowds don't like games entirely because it's "rewarding" or to min-max or whatever the hell you were trying to say. They do it because they're essentially the hobbyists of the genre, the people who are very invested in the overall industry and state of video-games. You know how some people really get into model cars? That's very similar to someone who is a game hobbyist, a.k.a. core/hardcore.

[hemmingjay]

I think we aren't communicating well for a couple of reasons and that's ok. We don't need to agree, but let's divide subjective and factual items. Neither myself or any majority of the population will agree to your concept of hardcore and softcore groupings but do agree on casual as a term. We don't even need to look at that though because the consoles do not attempt to cater to one type of gamer. That would be a really poor move. The closest we have seen to that was Nintendo targeting a younger audience, which you might have lumped into softcore/casual? The console manufacturer doesn't target just one type of game when pursuing an exclusive deal. It's in their interest to get publishers to sign exclusivity licenses, even temporary ones, regardless of the game itself. As long as they can secure the rights and maintain a projected profit they want them all.

You keep speculating as to Microsoft's intentions but stating them as a fact. For example you say they don't want the hardcore gamers anymore and I can 100% tell you that you are wrong. I am involved with their marketing RFPs through several media suites right now and they are indeed also going after them. What you have seen so far is a week of (mishandled) pr announcements. You have not seen any of the major advertising and direct marketing materials. Their initial announcement was intended to highlight the fact that it had evolved from a single purpose device to a gaming system that also replaces several boxes in your living room. That announcement wasn't aimed at the gamers, but rather specifically 35-45 y/o married males with 2 children and dual income households. The problem was that it was delivered at the wrong time and without a simultaneous announcement for your "core/hardcore" gamers about the gaming features.

I can tell you they have 3 "feature sheets" for three separate demographics. They have purchased and traded for well more than $125 million in radio and television advertising. In addition they are doing multiple spreads in upcoming magazines(not just gaming) clearing the air about policies. Some of the things that came out last week were true(at the time) but many are supposedly said incorrectly and not yet corrected. In the next 3 months you are going to see a lot about the Xbox that will make you say "why didn't they say that in the first place?" unless you are just committed to being irrationally against it. If you are, that's cool too. I get it. I HATE New Jersey and there is nothing you can do to convince me of it's value.

Another point I have to be a jerk about(i really am sorry, but it's part of my world) is you claimed that you can make much more money catering to a niche crowd. That is patently false especially, but not limited to, game consoles. You make more money by offering the most functionality at a value price point. If MS can show the consumers how it's gaming is better than it was and you can now use one remote OR your voice to control your entire entertainment system without forcing anything on you, then they will do very well. Then again, Microsoft has shown us lately, they really know how to screw up basic communication between them and us.

I was in a meeting this week with a buyer from one of the Ad agencies MS is using and a satellite radio company. The buyer for MS showed us a video, where a guy was sitting on his couch playing a game. During the game he told the xbox to launch Pandora and selected his music. Then his girlfriend reminded him it was their anniversary. He accessed his photos by voice, which brought up an overlay, he used his hand in the air(stupid kinnect seems much better) and then printed it before going back to his game and Pandora. The idea was to show how there are new ways your PC is connected to the Xbox now.

I won't use this, it seems unnecessary. Then again, in a year or two I would expect this sort of integration from all of my electronics. Both companies have a hurdle to overcome. The Xbox has to convince you you will use all of the new gadgets. PS needs to convince you it's much better than the PS3 despite not really doing anything new except better graphics. This is based on my life in Marketing more than my history of gaming.

Edit: It's late and I don't want you to think I am picking a fight with you. I respect your opinion but disagree with a couple of your facts. I hope you aren't offended.

[Bdthemag]

You're a fine guy, and I'm a somewhat below average yet somewhat decent guy. We both just think our opinions are super fucking shitty. I just honestly seemed to me from the start that you we both have inherit biases towards one console, so nothing is going to get across.

Edit: Also, I'm going to continue being a dick since I found one of those poll sites I was talking about earlier regarding Xbox One vs. PS4. This obviously isn't a definite response to the general sway of who wants what, and gods know who'll mess up and look bad in the future, but I think it's a good way to measure the current feelings of people on the internet about the two consoles. So far, it's weighed 72.55% in favor of the PS4. You can also hit on statistics, and see what the top-voting countries prefer, and you can click on the country itself to see what the top-voting regions prefer.

Here

[hermes]

What you are saying, hemmingjay, seems eminently reasonable and apparently well informed, but I have to agree with bdthemag.  Microsoft definitely have shifted their target market, as have companies like EA, and almost certainly this a decision that has been made in concert with each other.  No matter how poorly they communicated their message anyone who has been following Xbox for a while can see where the xbone is headed, and as bdthemag says this is definitely not aimed at core/hardcore gamers.  Maybe it looks different from the inside of the industry, and maybe that's where Microsoft have gone so badly wrong?  I'd be interested to return to this discussion in a year to see how post launch sales reflect one opinion or the other.  It would be foolish to discount the xbone so early, but I cannot agree with your diplomatic optimism!  No amount of spin can change peoples perception of Microsoft's basic policy, heck we've all seen decent enough games have sales hurt by a bad rep.

[GlyphGryph]

hemmingjay, everything your saying tells me... the currenty microsoft xbox team is going to continue to fuck up.

You emphasize that they are focused on features, when it's become blatantly clear at this point that the console market has moved on to the Experience component of the tech cycle. If you compete on features after the market has moved on, you die. That's basic marketing. Forcing that shift is how apple got such a huge lead in the MP3 player and smart phone markets. Forcing that shift is Microsoft Word dominated the word processing market. It's how the wii and xbox dominated the PS3. But they seem to have forgotten the lessons they learned.

The xbone looks like it may be the Zune all over again.