LeafsnailI believe that Dem was a panicking noob-town. Griffy lays into him with the pressure pretty hard starting here and doesn't let up, even when he knows the day will end before Dem reads his post.
[etc]
What's that example got to do with anything? Firstly it happens after the event I'm referring to, and secondly Dem probably never even saw it so there's no way it could influence his behaviour (and if he did see it he didn't post about it, so again it's irrelevant).
The first post I link is when Griffy first starts pressuring Dem. He even starts his post by FoS'ing Dem. I included links to the posts that Dem wouldn't/didn't see to emphasize that Griff continued his pressure. If you really want me to, I can link all of Griffy's posts regarding Dem that occurred before the vote to shorten. I trusted that you had read the thread, and would know that they talked.
In any case, Ranger was in more danger of being lynched at the time of the events I was referring to - why should Dem have been panicking? And further, I do not see why panicking would cause you to not vote a person you thought was the mafia rolecop or shorten the day at such a silly time.
I honestly do not know why he didn't vote Cado. Using his vote to pressure Griffy and earmark him as the probably scumbuddy is my best guess. My next best would be that Dem was OMGUSing Griffy.
Here Dem is stating pretty much what you are looking for. Why is he not voting for who he suspects to be the mafia role-cop? Cado is "doomed", so Dem uses his vote to put some weight behind his case on Griffy. He thinks Griffy and Cado are the scumteam, so while everyone else has voted Cado a secured spot in the gallows, Dem is pursuing he next suspect.
If Dem wanted him lynched, he should have voted for him. There is no meaning at all in pressure voting someone at deadline - you should always be lynch voting at deadline. This applies double if someone is only leading by one vote - why not just make it clear Griffion was his secondary suspect while also locking in the lynch of someone he believed to be the strongest mafia role in the game?
I completely agree. Yes, he should have switched his vote to Cado. I don't know why he didn't, and the best reason I can think of is that his vote to shorten accomplished the same thing.
Why did Dem vote for the shorten when his vote isn't going to get anything accomplished? If you look at the votecount immediately following the post quoted above, RangerCado has 3 votes, and Dem has 2. He's worried that Cado and his scumbuddy Griffy will convince someone to switch their vote, lynching Dem instead. Now I have no idea why Dem didn't switch his own vote to Cado, but his vote to shorten does do the trick to get his scum pick of Cado lynched.
I agree that Dem wanted to see Cado lynched while not voting him.
That is also the reason why Dem, and by extension you, are scum.
The reason why he didn't want to switch to Cado was because he didn't want to be seen as the last person bandwagoning on someone he knew to be a cop. He knew him to be a cop because he was a mafia member.
If he was town and genuinely thought Cado was the mafia rolecop, he'd have no reason at all to fear being on his wagon. Because he was scum, he did.
Its a fair point, but I don't think it was clear if Cado was a cop or not. I'm not talking about if Dem thought he was a town cop. I mean that if someone reading the thread at the time could derive that Cado was undoubtedly a cop. Even Vector expressed her doubts (which seems to be the basis of your case on her). While Dem might have thought he was a mafia roel-cop, I don't think he was certain. That, and Griffy was in his face.
Also, you say that if Dem were scum, he would know that Cado was the cop. Since when did the mafia already know the town power roles on day 1?
Now, something to keep in mind: the two mafia players knew that Cado was a cop. I believe that the mafia would be highly reluctant to both vote for him for fear of looking bad later, but also that they wouldn't want to obstruct the lynch too hard due to the fact that otherwise they'd have to waste their nightkill on him.
With that in mind, I think Demdemeh is strongly scummy too, and I would support a lynch on him(?) too. He loudly talked about how bad the claim was and kept saying that he was probably a mafia role cop, but then didn't vote him. Considering that the mafia role cop is the most desirable lynch in the game that makes no sense at all.
Please explain how this makes sense. Scumteam Vector and Dem knew Cado was the cop. On day 1. Before the mafia role-cop could inspect. So apparently the mafia already know who has what role. Then what would be the point of a mafia role-cop?
You seem to be regarding Dem's being replaced as scum fleeing pressure. Do you? Why? Your question to me explicitly says this:
and it's a shame that Dem appears to have vanished because a lot of players seem to regard a replacement as a chance to wipe the slate clean.
(again, my bolding)
I don't see his replacement as scum fleeing pressure. I was referring to other players in general, who often basically hit a reset button in their heads when a player is replaced (which would be bad because we're running out of time and you are scum). I feared the same could happen in this game.
Fair enough.
Why did you not pursue this? You found something suspicious, pressure Shinigami/TWS. Who is your third scumpick? Do you even have one?
Because I had two scumpicks, and there are two scum in this game. It was also a weak gut feeling.
Unless it's clear that your top two suspects are not going to be lynched today, there's really not much point in pursuing a third (and in that case you're probably chasing a compromise lynch on someone you don't really think is scum but who you think is better than the alternative).
I guess the person who I regard as least town other than you and Vector is Lenglon but he's still pretty town.
(Just to be clear, when you say the bolded part, you mean by voting your third scumpick in a hypothetical situation, yes? The first time I read it, it seemed like you were accusing me of trying to deflect onto Shinigami/TWS)
What happens if one or both of your top scumpicks aren't town, and you haven't pressured anyone else? This situation might sound familiar to you.
You are dead certain that Vector and I are scum. I can't speak for Vector, but what happens when if I flip town? Who is your next suspect?
Lenglon. But again, I don't think that will happen.
So you won't pressure her today. At all. Ok, I'll ask this as a new player seeking advice from an IC.
IF I get lynched today, and flip town, how do you expect the town to react to your actions? Even if you weren't an all powerful IC who
obviously knows who the scum are. What would you do then?
Relating to above: You are "advising" everyone to vote to lynch me. I suppose that if I want town to win, I should follow your advice and vote myself. Or, you are scum, and so it would make perfect sense to lay down and die so you can win faster. You never specify who would be winning the game, Leafsnail. Why then, do you advise that every player tunnels your two scumpicks?
Because I want to see scum lynched. If the town doesn't vote for the scum, the scum can come in later and use their votes to cause a no lynch or lynch a townie. Kindof like what you just did by voting me with no reasoning at all. I don't even think there's really anything to respond to here - you're saying that because I want to win, and that may mean I want to win as a mafia member, I'm a mafia member? Or because I'm advising people to vote for the people who I think are mafia I'm mafia?
I'm sorry, I forgot that you don't believe in a pressure vote. That was inconsiderate of me. I wanted to see what would happen when one of your inactive scumpicks suddenly came back in earnest. Poke a hole and see what falls out, eh? You didn't immediately back off, and you remain rigid to your belief. Now I know that you aren't acting this way because you are being intentionally stupid to try and teach the new players. I found it odd that you left it open to debate whether you wanted town to win or scum.
I think that your attitude towards the current situation is stupid. Not scummy. Stupid. You aren't even considering the
possibility of anyone else being scum. I am very interested in seeing how you answer my above question. Also, you didn't really answer this one:
Why then, do you advise that every player tunnels your two scumpicks?
Also, you've tied up the vote (to save your partner) with barely any time remaining. I'd suggest voting for an extension if you want to pretend that you have the town's interests at heart.
I'm sorry, I thought you read my post. I did vote for an extension, in fact the last vote needed to extend the day. It's ok, it wasn't by your name, so you don't have to pay attention to it. Also, the old day end was tomorrow. Did you think that I would be as inactive as Dem?
Right. I'll start with this.
TheWetSheep is scum. More tomorrow.
Can't you at least provide a one-liner summary, or an extension vote when the day is set to end before you come back to explain your vote?
She doesn't need to extend; I already provided the last one needed. Which you missed. It's ok. But why are you defending TWS? Isn't it according to your philosophies that you should make players defend their own cases, and not comment on others' cases?
Why are you buddying Leafsnail here?
If you think TWS is buddying me then that contradicts your vote - there's no reason at all for a mafia member to buddy their partner. They already know their partner is on their side.
Here:
2. Yes, if I had to pick a scumteam it would be Vector and Dem. You bring up a really good point there, and in my reads post I go into a bit more detail on his jumping on Griffion.
To me, this reads as TWS saying "Yes sir, you're the best sir." Why are you answering questions for TWS? Unless, of course,
- Vector(2) - TheWetSheep, Leafsnail
They already know their partner is on their side.
Also, what are you going to do to strengthen your cases? If things were as obvious as you say they are, then there should be no way the day would end in a tie.
Honestly, I can't determine your alignment because of WIFOM. Your current attitude is that you are going to get the town to lynch your two scumpicks. And then the game will end, because you are right. You are dead sure of who the scum are. This kind of thinking screams town to me. Scum couldn't afford to have only two dead certain cases, otherwise the town would turn on them when the lynch flips. No scum would ever do that, etc, WIFOM. You are scum. You are not scum. I can't read you, and trying to do so is a fruitless effort. We have the extension, and I want to see what Vector and Griffionday have to say before I put down a lynch vote. I have no read on her either, so I'll have to wait for her response to your case.
TheWetSheep: What is your view on Leafsnail defending you?
Griffinpup: What are your opinions on Dem's actions? On Leafsnail?
Giffionday:I'll try and post something substantive tonight; final prep is killing me though. (I'm not going to ask for a replacement, don't worry)
Didn't happen, and won't happen today either, I WILL post something Wednesday I promise.
I would very much like to see your views. What about Leafsnail's behavior seems more like scum, and less like belligerent town?
PPE: Vector