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Author Topic: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!  (Read 102408 times)

RangerCado

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #345 on: May 24, 2013, 09:00:15 pm »

Birdy: Getting to know your character as well can help both sides equally. Scum may find a way to play your emotions where as town may understand how you look at things. As an example, Shinigami likes things orderly and calculated, but can appreciate a huge gambit under the right circumstances. You seem to like being sure of what your doing. It looks like you plan your questions and answers, while keeping a decently open mind about the opposing side. Character and Standing should go hand in hand in this game when determining reads.

Dem being my target was more just to try and get him back and talking instead of disappearing again. (Also, sorry about that Dem. I looked over your big post and you did answer everything. Just a bit harder to tell from your formatting.)

I still believe you tried to turn my attention away but it may not have been intentional. You haven't shown anymore signs that you may be trying too so unless your scum getting the IC to proofread your posts, your not overly guilty of this.

As for the my questions/attack, yes they were light. It was meant only to catch-up on RVS questions i would have asked you had you not been a replacement. Your feeling of a deeper meaning behind them seems like paranoia to me. A normal townie wouldn't need to be paranoid because they know they are expendable. Defending themselves is one thing, but a townie whos being paranoid isn't a good townie. Power roles can be a bit paranoid as if they die the town takes a huge blow. So unless you have a power role, your coming off as a paranoid scum to me. (Note that this is different from a panicking Townie)

My method of defence changes as everyone hits me with varying degrees of pressure. I try to be adaptive to whos attacking and how so that i don't get over wellmed.
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Shinigami_King

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #346 on: May 24, 2013, 10:51:38 pm »

I disagree cado. Paranoia is natural (I have it) to some extent because everyone here is in a position where the scum trying to kill you could be everyone.

Pup- Umm, I hope it's okay with you if I take some time over the weekend for your questions. I'll cover what I can now but I've been attacked multiple times for these same reasons so I would like to form a kind of final product of my defense.
I "didn't answer any of your questions the first time" because I thought I addressed them all, though indirectly, in my last post directed to you.

I don't know why her pressure attempt was soft-balled. You would have to ask her though my guess is that she might have been thankful for me protecting her. I don't know though.

I addressed why I'm not as concerned about Lenglon. Don't get me wrong, if someone strikes me as scummy I will be at least a bit concerned. I believe that her scumhunting methods are capable of helping us out in the long run. This makes it worth the while to keep her around if we aren't sure.

I have in fact pressured her, just very poorly. I will look over the weekend to try to find where, deal?

The Lenglon is scummy topic is something else that I want to take my time with. I want to gather enough info to make a solid read. To do this I want to read through the whole thread and pick out inconsistencies. The major thing is how weak she is playing right now. From meta game I can say that she was a very active and strong player and that isn't showing in this game which is suspicious.

Hope that covers mostly everything.
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griffinpup

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #347 on: May 24, 2013, 11:00:29 pm »

Thanks for your reply Shinigami.  I'm looking forward to what you can dig up over the weekend.  :D
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Lenglon

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #348 on: May 24, 2013, 11:35:04 pm »

Today was exhausting, but I owe you guys a post. i'll see what I can throw together, sorry for the delay.
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Lenglon

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #349 on: May 25, 2013, 12:33:47 am »

Well, lemmie see. I've said my piece regarding ranger, and he's given his responses. I dont like them, but I dont think either of us have anything to add on the matter, so it's time for me to move on.

Ford: What's up? you disappeared on us all of a sudden, what happened? and should we expect you to be inactive this weekend again?

Vector: How do you suggest handling the situation I'm in reagarding my read of you? currently I think that if you're scum, I'm only going to be able to be sure of it around LYLO, and that it will be due more to process of elimination than an actual read of you. I do not like this state of affairs, but am reasonably certain that if you are scum, you wont be making the kind of slips that I could catch you in.

Birdy: In the previous BM, Shinigami and I were put in a difficult situation and guessed wrongly, and I would like to know what you would have done in the same one. It was MYLO, and there was a pair of doctor claims being made by the two scummiest players left in the game (who were voting each other). Both of them had been lurking, one was an IC, and was giving off very few reads, even when everyone else was pressuring him. the other was not an IC, and panicked when Shinigami and I switched our pressure over to him. how would you have resolved which one was the last scum?
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Vector

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #350 on: May 25, 2013, 01:04:01 am »

Vector: How do you suggest handling the situation I'm in reagarding my read of you? currently I think that if you're scum, I'm only going to be able to be sure of it around LYLO, and that it will be due more to process of elimination than an actual read of you. I do not like this state of affairs, but am reasonably certain that if you are scum, you wont be making the kind of slips that I could catch you in.

To be honest, when I have a player I'm totally unsure of I do process of elimination as well--the key is to realize that that's necessary and get your reads ASAP.  But otherwise, ask any questions you can think of that might be relevant.  I think that in these sorts of situations, the important thing is to not be worried too much about annoying people or whatever.  Don't doubt yourself too much.  Just go for it, until you feel confident.
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Lenglon

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #351 on: May 25, 2013, 01:16:35 am »

Well, if stupid questions are acceptable, I might as well get this one out of the way.

One post isn't enough to build an opinion, so you ask her about her opinion of you as an RVS question.  Now that's just talented.

Vector: Was that a compliment or sarcasm? could you explain what you were saying here in more detail?
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Lenglon

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #352 on: May 25, 2013, 01:29:51 am »

... i just softballed that question with the "stupid questions" preamble didn't I?

darn it.
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((I don't think heating something that is right above us to a ridiculous degree is very smart. Worst case scenario we become +metal statues+. This is a finely crafted metal statue. It is encrusted with sharkmist and HMRC. On the item is an image of HMRC and Pancaek. Pancaek is laughing. The HMRC is melting. The artwork relates to the encasing of the HMRC in metal by Pancaek during the Mission of Many People.))

Vector

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #353 on: May 25, 2013, 01:50:24 am »

That was sarcasm.  I was saying that she was contradicting herself.
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griffinpup

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #354 on: May 25, 2013, 09:25:29 am »

Lenglon, Shingami keeps talking about your 'great' scumhunting ability, and that it's 'capable of helping us out in the long run.'
 do you think that you have demonstrated strong scumhunting methods so far in this game?  If not, why not?
Do you agree with Shinigami's assessment of you abilities?
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birdy51

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #355 on: May 25, 2013, 09:37:03 am »

Birdy: Getting to know your character as well can help both sides equally. Scum may find a way to play your emotions where as town may understand how you look at things. As an example, Shinigami likes things orderly and calculated, but can appreciate a huge gambit under the right circumstances. You seem to like being sure of what your doing. It looks like you plan your questions and answers, while keeping a decently open mind about the opposing side. Character and Standing should go hand in hand in this game when determining reads.

Dem being my target was more just to try and get him back and talking instead of disappearing again. (Also, sorry about that Dem. I looked over your big post and you did answer everything. Just a bit harder to tell from your formatting.)

I still believe you tried to turn my attention away but it may not have been intentional. You haven't shown anymore signs that you may be trying too so unless your scum getting the IC to proofread your posts, your not overly guilty of this.

As for the my questions/attack, yes they were light. It was meant only to catch-up on RVS questions i would have asked you had you not been a replacement. Your feeling of a deeper meaning behind them seems like paranoia to me. A normal townie wouldn't need to be paranoid because they know they are expendable. Defending themselves is one thing, but a townie whos being paranoid isn't a good townie. Power roles can be a bit paranoid as if they die the town takes a huge blow. So unless you have a power role, your coming off as a paranoid scum to me. (Note that this is different from a panicking Townie)

My method of defence changes as everyone hits me with varying degrees of pressure. I try to be adaptive to whos attacking and how so that i don't get over wellmed.

I am afraid you've left a very minimal impression on me with this argument. While you answered my questions, you did so softly. You call me paranoid. I call you afraid of stepping up to the plate. Your answers to my questions are evasive and vague, with minor contraditions. For instance, you say I have an open, but paranoid mind on the same. Those are two adjectives that do not lend themselves to one another. You're struggling to find a way to defend yourself and "adapt" as you call it, which I take as a negative sign.

You also say combine "questions" with the word "attack". A question is only an attack when it forces the one answering into an uncomfortable place. You held me at cookie-point, so I'm not sure where you are going with this. The only reason I became suspicious at all was due to the nature of the questions, as opposed to the questions asked. Your questions were soft enough to the point where they raised suspicions on the account that I felt they were too weak to have been asked by a townie.


I'm going to try to take some time and start the preparations a final arguement. Expect it before the fall of Night.

Birdy: In the previous BM, Shinigami and I were put in a difficult situation and guessed wrongly, and I would like to know what you would have done in the same one. It was MYLO, and there was a pair of doctor claims being made by the two scummiest players left in the game (who were voting each other). Both of them had been lurking, one was an IC, and was giving off very few reads, even when everyone else was pressuring him. the other was not an IC, and panicked when Shinigami and I switched our pressure over to him. how would you have resolved which one was the last scum?

I don't think I would have done much different in your place. I would have resolved the situation in the same way you guys did. For the sake of clarity, I am just going to use the names of the players while answering this question. Borno, the non-IC gave me suspicious vibes, which were tragically misplaced. Borno was desperate, and rightfully so being the real doctor.

There were only a few signs that pointed to Deathsword, the IC, which was covered up by Borno's arguements. For instance he completely disappeared and refused to give justification as to why. He also never produced anything terribly solid against Borno. If it weren't for the Last Day scramble, his arguments would have been passed off as paper thin.

The only thing you and Shingami could have done is to have deadlocked the vote, potentially cutting down the pool of players from 4 to 3 after the night kill, forcing Deathsword to justify himself, and giving Borno some air to breathe and calm down. That would have been the ideal answer to the situation, but it was also mutually understood the game had gone on long enough.

At the end of the day, I think I would have made the very same fatal errors that you both made.

That was sarcasm.  I was saying that she was contradicting herself.

Himself*. I am actually a man.
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griffinpup

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #356 on: May 25, 2013, 10:27:09 am »

So, Demdemeh, if I could kind of wrap up your whole argument about your bad play before, it was just that?  You were just playing poorly, acting defensively, and not knowing how to push, and doing this not because  you were scum, but because you were merely inexperienced and, for lack of a better word, bad?  You've now improved your play substantially, and I do accept this argument for now.
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Lenglon

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #357 on: May 25, 2013, 12:30:10 pm »

Lenglon, Shingami keeps talking about your 'great' scumhunting ability, and that it's 'capable of helping us out in the long run.'
 do you think that you have demonstrated strong scumhunting methods so far in this game?  If not, why not?
I'm not certain how strong my scumhunting has been this game. I don't feel that I am good at judging myself without bias. I think my scumhunting was weak at the start for the same reasons that I took that break earlier, since then I've done my best to keep my actions more solid, and I think i'm doing better, but I dont know how much better.
Do you agree with Shinigami's assessment of you abilities?
not really. I've done a lot of reading but am very badly lacking in practice. most of what I know is pure theory, book-learning if you will. I hope to improve as the game goes on. part of the problem that I have right now is there's enough unknown that process of elimination style techniques aren't viable. This is my first Day 1, and I'm still learning a lot about it. I think my play will improve as the game goes on, and there are fewer unknowns.

Birdy: I was surprised by one thing in your analysis. you suggested that we could have waited a day to reduce the situation from MYLO to LYLO. however, we knew the last mafia was one of two players, who were making competing doctor claims. waiting a night would have done nothing from my understanding of the situation, because we had assigned each doctor a target to use their protect on. if the mafia killed anyone at night, we would have known which one was the scum, which meant that we were locked into an endless MYLO because the scum would simply no-kill. In your response you made it clear you had read the game in question, since you filled in borno and deathsword's names, and mentioned your personal reads of the people involved, so I am curious why you thought waiting a night could have changed anything.

Vector: What was the most difficult mafia game you have ever been in and why?

Shinigami: I dont see where you responded to this post by vector:
Yeah, see, you keep on assuming that the scum is going to play nice or be obvious.  Why didn't you win last game?  Just couldn't pick up on the obvious signs?

You're assuming that if you devise a perfect enough machine then you'll be able to weed out all scum and keep all townies without any real work.  You'll lynch off everyone that mixes things up for being "against the group."  But I'm going to tell you one more time: You don't get an ideal group of players.  You get what you get.  You have to learn to work with what you have, rather than wasting lynches on "oooh, I don't like him" or "aaah, I don't like her playstyle."  You can't afford to buddy up to Lenglon because she's "a better scumhunter."

Just look at the numbers.  Town has three lynches before they lose.  What will you do in a game with four scumhunters you don't like?  I promise you that the more vocal you are about it, the longer the scum will try to keep them alive.  Or, what will you do in a game where the person you like just happens to be scum, and you spend the better half of your time trying to defend them from townies you dislike?  Do you legitimately think that you're not going to get lynched?

Look, I'm not asking you to be nice.  I'm just asking you to be somewhat less stupid.
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birdy51

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #358 on: May 25, 2013, 02:35:18 pm »

Birdy: I was surprised by one thing in your analysis. you suggested that we could have waited a day to reduce the situation from MYLO to LYLO. however, we knew the last mafia was one of two players, who were making competing doctor claims. waiting a night would have done nothing from my understanding of the situation, because we had assigned each doctor a target to use their protect on. if the mafia killed anyone at night, we would have known which one was the scum, which meant that we were locked into an endless MYLO because the scum would simply no-kill. In your response you made it clear you had read the game in question, since you filled in borno and deathsword's names, and mentioned your personal reads of the people involved, so I am curious why you thought waiting a night could have changed anything.

That I did. I didn't know you had assigned the doctors to protect someone as to keep track of who is who, so I was a bit oblivious to that detail. I had kept track of the game a little bit, but only paid attention at the endgame as it was unfolding.

Anyways, to answer your question, a delay is just that, a delay. I am not averse to allowing time to run on in ordr to establish things. Taking more time to think and consider the options could have been beneficial in that situation. But that is a perfect enviroment setting. At the time of the game, I did not know Deathsword was scum, and as I had said I would have followed your lead in lynching Borno. It's only after the fact that I wonder if more time would have helped.
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Griffionday

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Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #359 on: May 25, 2013, 02:57:17 pm »

Still waiting for people to reply to me...


Shinigami
While doing the reread for pup, please take the time to answer Vector's and my questions.


Vector and Ford:
I'll ask you [birdy] more questions in a bit; I'm just taking a bit of time off from cleaning my room.
I see your post, Longlen, I'll take a close look at Day and get back to you tomorrow. I'm falling asleep at my keyboard as it is.
Are you planning on following through with these or did you just say these to appear busy?
It seems like you're saying this to buy time while waiting for someone else to slip up so you can act as "instructor" and keep active.

I'm pretty sure the scum team isn't BOTH of you; as that would make our task nearly impossible due to the experience gap.  Same question to both of you though.
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