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Yes

10 (17.9%)

No

46 (82.1%)

Total Members Voted: 53

[Kansa]

Consider the following:
We can not clone a human, but instead a universe. We make a perfect replica of this universe that mirrors ours exactly. Every event that happens in this universe, happens in that one. The result of a coin flip is the same in 100% of cases. Everything you will ever do, your clone will do the same.

Now, you are offered $10 to swap places with your universal clone. You live their life from now on, and they live yours. Would you take the money?

No I wouldn't, I realise it makes no logical sense as everything would be exactly the same either way but I would always feel like a fake if I switched places with someone even if that person was exactly like me in every way.

[DeKaFu]

Funny thing. I view my clone as having less value to me than myself because they're not "me".

Okay, let's name three yourselves: Pre-clone original, post-clone original, and clone. How would these three different minds value the post-clone original compared to the clone?

I'm pretty sure they'd all value things exactly the same way I would.

[Catsup]

If somebody must die, then at the very least someone other than me is going to suffer as much as I must. I am not one to give up or surrender under any circumstances, and I find the idea of self-sacrifice disgusting when I have every bit as much right to live as anyone else. Call me a barbaric, mindless, uncivilized animal, but I'll rip your fucking legs off and beat you to death with them before even considering letting you touch me.

yes but are you really going to be running for ever? the both of you? i dont think i can do that... if the world wants one of us dead, i would eventually turn on my other half and tearfully kill him even if we've become so close that i'd rather die than let anything hurt him.

[Max White]

Would I get to take the $10 to the other universe? If yes, then yes. If no, then still yes, just to be able to say I switched universes.

EDIT: Although it wouldn't really matter, since I would get offered $10 in the other universe too, right?

Yes, exactly. The guys in the other universe are also offering your clone $10. It doesn't matter if they pay you before the switch, or pay your clone after the switch, because either way you get paid $10.

No I wouldn't, I realise it makes no logical sense as everything would be exactly the same either way but I would always feel like a fake if I switched places with someone even if that person was exactly like me in every way.

Wow, you are strongly invested in a sense of unique identity aren't you?

I would take the money and bro fist my clone on the way through. And I know he would return that bro fist... Because he is me. And he does what I do.

[Graknorke]

Funny thing. I view my clone as having less value to me than myself because they're not "me".

Okay, let's name three yourselves: Pre-clone original, post-clone original, and clone. How would these three different minds value the post-clone original compared to the clone?

I'm pretty sure they'd all value things exactly the same way I would.

So let's change the scenario up a bit.
You have been drugged, and wake up in a room with another person. That person you recognise as you. You are told that their brain has been copied and given to you. Only one of you can leave alive.
Would you agree to be killed?

[Catsup]

So let's change the scenario up a bit.
You have been drugged, and wake up in a room with another person. That person you recognise as you. You are told that their brain has been copied and given to you. Only one of you can leave alive.
Would you agree to be killed?

im pretty sure anyone with a conscious mind who is sane would never agree to be killed.

[GlyphGryph]

Magma, I was actually trying to find and use Catsups definition of "same" in my analogy, which proved... elusive, at best. The only point I was attempting to make was that there is a way to handle the process while maintaining continuation, which was an integral sticking point to several people. And good job figuring out that I was basically describing mind mitosis, heh.

Again, I wasn't trying to make a general argument about the mind, only that there exists a process whereby one could maintain continuance while still ending up with two objects in the end. I was working on but a pillar of the logical fallacies that pervade this thread, and haven't really even stated my own viewpoint - only that those who maintain that the mind is both important and that it's important comes from a continuous line from 'here' to 'there' aren't actually providing a reasonable objection, since it's clearly not an important point about what they value.

Also, panH, you said

Actually, no. Us being continually changing doesn't mean we don't have a link to our past selves, this link being part of our present selves.
There's no point in creating a clone / teleportation / mind transfer, even with the same memories.

But that doesn't really address the point of my example. The purpose was that it is possible to enable what is essentially a 'mind transfer' (hypothetically) while maintaining that link, and furthermore that it is possible (hypothetically) to get even more far-out stuff like mind mitosis. Whether you think there's a purpose to doing something like that, or whether you'd want to, or whether you believe any number of things isn't really relevant to the original example or the analogy I tried to use to describe it. I guess I might have misspoke - I meant to say, as far as I can tell, that you wouldn't have a problem with the splitting of the mind being something that can happen (while maintaining that link), not so much that you'd want to do it personally.

[DeKaFu]

Funny thing. I view my clone as having less value to me than myself because they're not "me".

Okay, let's name three yourselves: Pre-clone original, post-clone original, and clone. How would these three different minds value the post-clone original compared to the clone?

I'm pretty sure they'd all value things exactly the same way I would.

So let's change the scenario up a bit.
You have been drugged, and wake up in a room with another person. That person you recognise as you. You are told that their brain has been copied and given to you. Only one of you can leave alive.
Would you agree to be killed?

If there was nothing to suggest this wasn't the truth of the situation, yes. It'd be hard, but yeah.

Fakedit:

So let's change the scenario up a bit.
You have been drugged, and wake up in a room with another person. That person you recognise as you. You are told that their brain has been copied and given to you. Only one of you can leave alive.
Would you agree to be killed?

im pretty sure anyone with a conscious mind who is sane would never agree to be killed.

):

Edit: I guess I would consider it on par with sacrificing yourself to save your child, or whatnot. I'd value the original's life over mine.

[GlyphGryph]

im pretty sure anyone with a conscious mind who is sane would never agree to be killed.

This is... not uncommon. I see you haven't seen much of the world? A great many people value other things more than their lives, and would give up their lives to see those things carried on, even to the extent of, yes, agreeing to be killed. I don't think that makes people insane.

Unless you meant only in that specific scenario.

[Max White]

im pretty sure anyone with a conscious mind who is sane would never agree to be killed.

I beg to differ.
If one of you must die, and due to the workings of his hypothetical situation that is unavoidable, the most sane and rational mind would understand that risking injury to you both isn't worth it. Easier to accept ones death.

The problem is that having this mind set, your clone will also accept their own death and be willing to sacrifice themselves to save you. You are no better than before. How do you determine who lives and who dies? You need to base this on factors outside of your control, such as the layout of the room.

[Kansa]

Wow, you are strongly invested in a sense of unique identity aren't you?

I would take the money and bro fist my clone on the way through. And I know he would return that bro fist... Because he is me. And he does what I do.

The thing is I agree theoretically with a lot of what people on the other side are saying, we are made up of our experiences and memories after all and those are the things that shape who we are. But when it truly comes down to it I don't think I could see that other person as me. I can't really explain it, I've already admitted it makes no sense logically but in the end I would view us as being two separate people.

[MagmaMcFry]

Funny thing. I view my clone as having less value to me than myself because they're not "me".

Okay, let's name three yourselves: Pre-clone original, post-clone original, and clone. How would these three different minds value the post-clone original compared to the clone?

I'm pretty sure they'd all value things exactly the same way I would.

So the clone would value himself less valuable than that other guy that looks like him, just because he was told he was a clone? He can't even confirm that he was told the truth. Would he change his mind if he was later told he was the original? Would the post-clone original then change his mind too and decree himself suddenly worthless? Those are the kind of things that you need to consider to ensure that your thoughts are logic-proof. All of what you are trying to defend here is based on gut feelings and instincts, you haven't thought it through with logic.

Wow, you are strongly invested in a sense of unique identity aren't you?

I would take the money and bro fist my clone on the way through. And I know he would return that bro fist... Because he is me. And he does what I do.

The thing is I agree theoretically with a lot of what people on the other side are saying, we are made up of our experiences and memories after all and those are the things that shape who we are. But when it truly comes down to it I don't think I could see that other person as me. I can't really explain it, I've already admitted it makes no sense logically but in the end I would view us as being two separate people.

You have to separate your concept of "body" and your concept of "mind". You're still clinging onto that 1-to-1 relation since you never thought about it like this before.

[Catsup]

This is... not uncommon. I see you haven't seen much of the world? A great many people value other things more than their lives, and would give up their lives to see those things carried on, even to the extent of, yes, agreeing to be killed. I don't think that makes people insane.

the world ends when you die, so yes i think the ppl who sacrifice themselves are indeed insane. (or at least have not had time to thoroughly think and logically make their decision).

[Max White]

Not a very good idea to base who lives and who dies based on who you are told in the clone. They could be lying.
If you are ok with either living and have another method for resolving the situation, then no matter what happens after you escape the room, your choice will be as valid.

The problem comes when you leave the room and find a bunch of men standing around, including yourself, and it turns out you were both clones. You are your original are now essentially different people, marginally, but enough. How do you then decide what to do?

[GlyphGryph]

the world ends when you die, so yes i think the ppl who sacrifice themselves are indeed insane. (or at least have not had time to thoroughly think and logically make their decision).

This is... uh... I'm pretty sure most people would consider THIS sentiment insane, actually. The belief that the world ends when you die. I don't, personally, I'm just saying your statement is pretty weak considering the context. "I'm not mad! Everyone else is mad!"