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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?  (Read 5113 times)

Cruxador

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2013, 12:42:43 am »

I actually like the UI in general too. However some things just don't make sense - why is an up/down stair x in one menu but i in another? Things really ought to be more standardized. No sense doing it now though, if it were to happen too often it just means people need to re-learn those buttons, and it would doubtless need to be changed several times before release if it were to be kept sensical the whole way through.
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vonduus

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2013, 06:09:18 am »

I was very happy when Mouse Fortress showed up.

But now it turns out that I only use a very, very tiny part of what Mouse Fortress can do. Like, it is possible to select buildings to build from a mouse-driven menu, but I never use this feature, because I seem to have already memorised all the commands.

What I do use Mouse Fortress for, is inspection: It is so much easier to quickly check out what is what on the screen: I just move the cursor with my mouse and look things up by using memorized key commands.

Also, I don't think I would play the game without Dwarf Therapist. I know it can be done, because I did it, but then I found DT, and now I am addicted.

And DFHack is also a must, imho, for the bug fixes it allows.

I really think we live in the best of all worlds, DF-wise. Toady and Zach can concentrate on the important stuff, like mechanics, and the community creates alternative user interfaces. Purists can have it their way, I can have it my way.

People who seriously advocate for purity in a single player game must be stupid. Unless of course they fear that their preferred way of playing is in danger of being ditched; if this is what drives these people, then they have my sympathy. If not, well, self-pronounced elites are mostly jerks.

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Greiger

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2013, 07:33:41 am »

Yea it's intimidating, but useable once yer used to it.

There is definitely room for improvement though.  Lots of inconsistent scrolling for one, and the stocks screen REALLY needs to be able to use shift-arrow when set to larger window sizes.   Checking how many bars I have in stock is a friggin chore when it's 20 arrow presses from the top or bottom of the screen.

Page up/page down.
Sure, of course, but when it's also 20 items from the bottom of the screen page as well that's not very helpful.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2013, 11:38:31 am »

Yeah, once you get used to it, it's just like typing anything else.

Mouse support would not hurt my feelings, but using key commands for everything is faster. Moving the cursor around with the numpad or arrows is kinda clunky and slow, however.
Shift + Arrows/numpad
Yeah I know, but you'll skip over something and have to plod your way back a few squares by mashing the arrow key anyways.

Would be nice if you could just click on them.
The most buttons you'll have to press after using shift+arrows/numpad to get close to the site of action is four or five. It's the friendliest part of the UI to learn, especially with an early reliance on the 'k' tool. Though indeed, mouse Fortress would be an interesting addition.
Currently 'd'esignations can be made with a mouse, strange that there's not much else use for it.

I actually like the UI in general too. However some things just don't make sense - why is an up/down stair x in one menu but i in another?
What do you mean? Up/down stairs can only be built with x. Unless you mean digging up/down stairs, in which case if you want to you can remap the keys to match each other. 'x' is taken by the remove designation designation.

Things really ought to be more standardized. No sense doing it now though, if it were to happen too often it just means people need to re-learn those buttons, and it would doubtless need to be changed several times before release if it were to be kept sensical the whole way through.
Toady's going to fix up the UI when a good deal of the game is done, if not completed. As you said, no point changing the UI if it'll have to change by the next update.

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2013, 10:02:40 pm »

I love to use keyboard in every UI possible, and I really like DF's interface! Sometimes i even designate jobs through DF menus while Dwarf therapist is open in the background, and make mining designations with both hands on keyboard.

In my opinion, the UI serves two purposes for two different groups: first, it tells new people what they can do and lays out their options in a way that's easy to interpret. Second, it minimizes the amount of work the user needs (usually measured in keypresses) so people who know what they're doing can get things done quickly.

DF is very good at the latter. Not the former. Having an option for every key on your board is fantastic once you have them all memorized, but intimidating before then.
My thoughts exacly. Also if you have fast hands even pressing multiple buttons like "dbd" for dumping designation can be done almost as fast as a single hotkey, and mostly faster than moving the mouse and clicking a button.
I miss the old games that had almost all the keyboard cowered with keybindings, like Descent Freespace, ha even Fallout1 had ~44 keys to press.

Thats true. Like new starcraft players using the mouse to click on icons, while people familiar with the game mostly press hotkeys.
Mashing keyboard was half the fun in StarCraft:BW! It required an agility of mind and rhythm as well as knowledge. People can say it's a click fest, but it creates much more rewarding experience when you learn it.

Also mechanical keyboards + keyboard based interface = <3
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 10:04:59 pm by Nao »
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itisnotlogical

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2013, 11:47:15 pm »

I just hate the military menus. I never have any idea what my soldiers are doing, where they're doing it or what they're equipped with.
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Jenniretta

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2013, 12:09:32 am »

honestly, I love the UI, and I hope if toady changes it, then the style available now stays an option - I spent the time to learn all the keys, so I play with that help-bar-thing that tells you the keys (on the right of the screen) hidden and get to see a full 1400x900 screen of whatever my dwarves are doing most of the time.

As for implementing stuff from DFhack and Terapist to the UI... I hope toady either doesn't or keeps the current methods available if he does. I have tried both therapist and dfhack at various times, and found them more annoying than helpful, I just hated using them, it took a lot of the fun out of the game for me when I tried to force myself to use them.

As for mouse inclusion - Please whatever you do toady, keep the option to hide all the help-bar stuff. I would HATE to have icons and such on screen I can't get rid of, all I want to see when I'm not in a build menu or designating something is the main window - the one where you see the fortress and the dwarves.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 12:12:21 am by Jenniretta »
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Graknorke

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2013, 11:58:24 am »

I just hate the military menus. I never have any idea what my soldiers are doing, where they're doing it or what they're equipped with.
m>e then navigate to each dwarf. The items with a green tick next to them are items that they are carrying.
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Cruxador

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2013, 01:42:32 pm »

honestly, I love the UI, and I hope if toady changes it, then the style available now stays an option - I spent the time to learn all the keys, so I play with that help-bar-thing that tells you the keys (on the right of the screen) hidden and get to see a full 1400x900 screen of whatever my dwarves are doing most of the time.

As for implementing stuff from DFhack and Terapist to the UI... I hope toady either doesn't or keeps the current methods available if he does. I have tried both therapist and dfhack at various times, and found them more annoying than helpful, I just hated using them, it took a lot of the fun out of the game for me when I tried to force myself to use them.

As for mouse inclusion - Please whatever you do toady, keep the option to hide all the help-bar stuff. I would HATE to have icons and such on screen I can't get rid of, all I want to see when I'm not in a build menu or designating something is the main window - the one where you see the fortress and the dwarves.
Yeah, hiding the help bar should always be possible. As for integrating DFhack and Therapist, that's never literally going to happen. Those are programs that aren't directly compatible with DF code.  Folks just want some of those features added, like Therapist's ability to see an overview of all your dwarves and their labors and change things from there. There's no reason this would be exclusive with the ability to select one dwarf and change his labors from there.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2013, 03:07:25 pm »

Eh, I'd rather have Toady completely scrap the current UI as long as he could keep the advanced functionality in the new one. I wouldn't want him to have to keep the old style updated every time he added something that would affect the menus.
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Myrkky100

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2013, 02:53:04 am »

In my opinion, the current UI works fine in general. It could use a few tweaks here and there to be more consistent and easy to learn but in general it works very well. The two exceptions are labor designation and the military menu. Without Dwarf Therapist setting the labor stuff is horrible because by the time I've done half the population of a decent sized fortress, I've lost track of the big picture and can no longer be sure that I've covered all the assignments needed. And maybe its just my mind that isn't compatable with the current military menu systems but I just can't get the equipping and scheduling done without excessive use of time and swearing.
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Jenniretta

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2013, 06:12:15 am »

In my opinion, the current UI works fine in general. It could use a few tweaks here and there to be more consistent and easy to learn but in general it works very well. The two exceptions are labor designation and the military menu. Without Dwarf Therapist setting the labor stuff is horrible because by the time I've done half the population of a decent sized fortress, I've lost track of the big picture and can no longer be sure that I've covered all the assignments needed. And maybe its just my mind that isn't compatable with the current military menu systems but I just can't get the equipping and scheduling done without excessive use of time and swearing.

Honestly I don't see the issue with the current military menu. I like it, it gives a lot more control than the old system did. It is a bit harder to learn, but being able to choose everything down to the socks your military dwarves wear is such a great tradeoff for the added complexity.
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Boltgun

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2013, 07:23:44 am »

I find the interface is okay, but it need to be more consistent you can search for a job by typing, on another screen you have to type 's' and while trading 's' is for "instantly piss off the trader, ending every trade for this season, get free large sock".

Trading screens need to die anyway, with it's ridiculously short labels and inability to move items in bulk. After everything you need to go through to get the broker there, you don't need an interface where truncated names cannot let you differentiate a backpack from a quiver.

Dfhack help me a lot with those parts. I can play without it and its plugins, but fast trade and the search plugin save me quite some time.

I played before dwarf therapist and had no issue back then, all I needed to do was to look for jobs taking to long to complete and pick an idling dwarf in the meeting area. Then check the training rooms for dwarves with big civilian skills I may have drafted.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 07:27:49 am by Boltgun »
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Starver

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2013, 07:52:41 am »

In the "I don't see many problems with the UI, but that might just be because I've used it a lot" camp.

OTOH, I find Therapist's help invaluable, and would like a Therapist-like grid for various other management options where many items can be set on many items (goods vs stockpiles, dwarves vs burrows, etc), for the times when the current situation forces a lot of in-and-out of the current "select one among many of one thing, then select what thing(s), among many, that particular sub-thing needs association with" situation.  Exacerbated by the need (in the case of stockpiles, especially) to track down the physical location of every one, which could be awkward unless keeping a very organised fort layout at all times.  (Or keep track of which item I last scrolled down to on the... erm.. "R"oom list, is it?  ...without the game in front of me my muscle memory isn't too confident... anyway, that list of rooms/furnitures/zones/etc which you need to multi-scroll down each time you enter.)

But keyboard>>mouse, for me.  With the exception of a few occasional designate-digging "painting" sessions, when it's about equal (slightly faster to click, but slowed down by the need to discover where I'd managed to nudge the mouse off my desk to...)

Militarily, while I like the current Uniform definition and assignation system, I'd also like something of a replica of the schedule copy/paste situation, for taking one trooper's kit and replicating onto another.  Or even a single item-definition (fully qualified for material), so that copypasting the "leather cloak" can be done quicker than selecting cloak, then material for each item (or "cloak, cloak, cloak..." across a unit, then go in and 'Material'ise each generic cloak item across each

Adding one extra leather cape to each and every trooper (some of whom have just one, some might have a couple already, etc) could definitely benefit from this sort of improvement.  (Or if the general make-up of each soldier's armour is identical, and the addition is the same additional item then I would be happy with using Uniform if there was an option in the Uniform designation to not touch (add/remove/change) the weapon-slot when applied.  To stop me needing to update a half-dozen identical-save-for-weaponry uniforms and then apply them judiciously to the units/unit-members to which that weapon-type applies.)


Like I said, on the whole the UI and its keyboard-intense operation works for me.  (It helps w.r.t. the input interface that I've been using computers (PCs and pre-PCs) for many years and I know the keyboard better than the back of my hands.  Indeed, while I can look downwards to examine both, I rarely do unless for some reason O#br dp,rjpe djogyrf ,udr;g pmr lru pbt. eoyjpiy esyvjomh yjr dvtrrm.)

Where it doesn't work so simply, I work around it (and/or suffer, normally in silence), knowing that the problems that I have are so specific to the way that I play that I probably need to explain what I do/want the UI to do in long, rambling detail, and attach the half-dozen ways in which I might expect to gain a cure to my pains.  Witness the above. ;)

So, anyway, I'm definitely a fan of the UI (qualified by a few hesitant change-wishes).




@Boltgun: What I'd add to the Trading interface is a filtering system (similar to the "Move goods to trade" one) so that you don't have to do a lot of scrolling through (or, as is often easier, reverse-scroll warpping past the bottom of the list) to the anvils, and you can get to see every Leather bin without the cloth bins in the way and the sacks (optionally just the ones that empty, or with seeds/dye etc) without having to scroll through the chests, etc.  Or "all iron items"/"have 'iron' in the name", which could be bars, toys, weapons, various classes of armour, anvils, tools (and probably some other things), each sub-type which I can guess where in the list they are if aiming specifically for one of them, but if one is desperate to review all iron items available it means a lot of scrolling and scanning to make sure none has been missed.  Include item quality bracketing (similar to skill-level selection for workshop 'P'-management of who gets to work there) or value-ordering (like the Goods-move-to-trade selection has) and make sure that it works (independently) on each side of the trading floor (your stuff, their stuff...  your side contains only masterwork bracelets[1], their side contains only non-empty cages, or whatever).

But I don't understand the inability to move items in bulk...  Unless you mean something other than the possibility of selecting multiple items (on either/both side of the screen) when composing your various swapsies.   (For truncated names... tried "v", I think, on a selected item?  You probably don't mean that problem either, but FYI in case you've missed that anyway...)


[1] That's for self-selection possibilities.  If you've previously included no-quality earrings to the current bargaining round, before applying/changing the filter, or the traders up the ante by suggesting you add those stone mugs that you've been keeping in reserve then they could also feature (perhaps in a different text-colour).   (I've long ago learnt that if I really want to keep some trade-goods in reserve, then I should come out of the direct trading screen, into the goods-for-trade one and (temporarily, at least) deselect the things that you don't want the "Good start, but how about also..." discussion[2] to indiscriminately add... then (assuming you have enough left in reserve to avoid the "You don't even have enough!" complaint) they'll pick up something else that you're keeping in (less of a) reserve, should your lack of bargaining skills require them to make such choices.

[2] The 'filtered+selected' display would also allow you to easily find the one masterwork marble amulet among many that they've tried to sneak into the bargaining... waiting for you to adjust accordingly.
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Boltgun

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Re: Dwarf Fortress' UI: I kinda like it?
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2013, 09:01:54 am »

By "bulk" I indeed meant a way to select many items quickly for trading. For example I have plenty of craft in my stockpiles, 30 of those are not in bins. I need to press down then enter for every single craft. As much as we like to micromanage, sometimes we only need to select all the crafts and not each ring and flute in detail.

dfhack allow you to hold shift while pressing enter, moving down the selection for you. This is a lot faster but this can be improved.

A filter for the trading screen would be great. Because that would match the depot selection screen and because the pants are way further down the other armor/clothes items. Again dfhack help a lot as you can search for "boot" and narow down the list, of "iron" in a mineral poor biome to get items you'd like to melt.

I use v a lot, as I don't have a choice, but after trading the tenth "-<<-iron left..." it gets old.
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