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[GavJ]

You could both go get a notarized letter that you slept with each other on that date and that you were both willing at the time (just don't mention the alcohol either way). Lol.

Then even if one person presses charges, they are on record for having been awake and willing thus sealing their fate as a rapist as well. wheeeeee

You cannot make contracts agreeing to illegal activities, they are not recognized by the courts.

I just said a statement that something occurred, not a contract. You can make statements about anything, and they are indeed recognized. Including illegal things (for example you can make a statement about how you murdered 15 people, on the record, and you better damn well believe that will be recognized!)

Also though i was being silly. In reality, all that stuff should be a deterrent to having drunk sex in the first place. Not intentionally set up as a mutual threat situation.

[Neonivek]

Yes but if it doesn't hold up in real life then you need to adjust your definitions.

Even drunk driving fatalities are not first or second degree murder charges.

[GavJ]

Fair enough. Maybe a way to actually be reasonable about it in a way that feels much more intuitive than the above is to simply set up a 2nd degree rape charge, then? lesser charge, no filing for sex offender no matter what, only applies to willing adults who were both intoxicated?

You could even make it a civil tort so that it can't be pursued without one or both people pressing charges. But then you can't have jail time.
Although if neither person is willing to cooperate and the DA is just being a dick, they could just both plead the 5th, and no case. At least one of you would have to be on board to have anything happen.
So yes, leave it as criminal. With less penalties, no registry. Maybe even a shorter statute of limitations.

[Phmcw]

Let's try not to move the goalposts here.
So let's be very clear of what we're talking about.

Being drunk = joyous/tipsy/euphoric/incoherent/delirious/unresponsive
Of those state, during the first three, you're still able to consent to sex. During the last three you're not.
People regularly gather at parties where they drink and look for mates. Even outside of these parties humans tend to drink to "gather courage" for flirtation. A huge majority of drunk sex is made with consent of both parties.

Pretending that all drunk sex is rape is non factual and non enforcable.
Also the burden of knowing in which state peoples are doesn't rest only on the shoulders of your partner and an honest mistake on his part is not rape.

[DJ]

Let's just ban sex altogether.

[Neonivek]

Let's try not to move the goalposts here

To reality?

[GavJ]

Of those state, during the first three, you're still able to consent to sex. During the last three you're not.
People regularly gather at parties where they drink and look for mates. Even outside of these parties humans tend to drink to "gather courage" for flirtation. A huge majority of drunk sex is made with consent of both parties.

Tipsy =/= drunk.

Legally drunk for driving for instance is BAC > 0.08.  In a story about sexual encounters, there is unlikely to be breathalizer proof obviously, and for rape you can't use a cutoff like that, but I'm just pointing out that the law is quite capable of distinguishing between different levels of drunk.  Having a beer to help flirting does not have to be considered "drunk" for purposes of this discussion.

[Phmcw]

Of those state, during the first three, you're still able to consent to sex. During the last three you're not.
People regularly gather at parties where they drink and look for mates. Even outside of these parties humans tend to drink to "gather courage" for flirtation. A huge majority of drunk sex is made with consent of both parties.

Tipsy =/= drunk.

Legally drunk for driving for instance is BAC > 0.08.  In a story about sexual encounters, there is unlikely to be breathalizer proof obviously, and for rape you can't use a cutoff like that, but I'm just pointing out that the law is quite capable of distinguishing between different levels of drunk.  Having a beer to help flirting does not have to be considered "drunk" for purposes of this discussion.

BaC is mostly unrelated to the physical effects of alcohol as those are hugely differents from peoples to peoples.

I'm just pointing out that the law is quite capable of distinguishing between different levels of drunk.

Actually not really. It's very hard tą quantify the effect of alcohol, 0.08 is just a threshold under which you have 0 chances of being impaired by alcohol(lowered to 0.05 in Belgium and most of europe a few years ago I belive). You also didn't adress the rest of my points.

[GavJ]

It's very hard to quantify the effect of alcohol

which is precisely why you shouldn't be having sex with people who have been drinking!

0.08 is just a threshold under which you have 0 chances of being impaired

That sounds like exactly the threshold we should be using then. You should be confident of an almost 0% chance of raping somebody when you have sex with them..... I mean what, would you prefer ~5-10% chance of rape as acceptable?

Other points:
* Gathering courage to flirt is easy to do below 0.08/reasonable judgement impairment levels of alcohol. Doesn't change things. ALSO uh... you can flirt without having sex immediately afterward... I know it's a shocking theory to some college kids, but you can get drunk, flirt, then GO HOME SEPARATELY AND HAVE OTHER DATES LATER (where you might have sober sex). It is physically possible *gasp*

* Honest mistake =/= rape. This is simply not the law anywhere I'm aware of. It might affect sentencing, but is not relevant to statutory conviction criteria. Nor would I personally argue this is relevant in a moral sense: honest mistakes can cause just as much suffering as dishonest ones, so if the mistake is avoidable by being less negligent (again you don't HAVE to have sex with somebody RIGHT NOW, if you aren't sure about their sobriety), why should I have any sympathy?

[Phmcw]

* Gathering courage to flirt is easy to do below 0.08/reasonable judgement impairment levels of alcohol. Doesn't change things. ALSO uh... you can flirt without having sex immediately afterward... I know it's a shocking theory to some college kids, but you can get drunk, flirt, then GO HOME SEPARATELY AND HAVE OTHER DATES LATER (where you might have sober sex). It is physically possible *gasp*

And guess what? Peoples don't want to do that!
We're not going to indulge in those fascists fantasies that have nothing to do with preventing rape and everything abiut controling the sex life of others. Peoples in the circles that I frequent, be it larping, electro parties, student parties,... often indulge in drunken sex and don't give a fuck about what you think of it. The law is still that you can have sex drunk and good luck changing it.

[GavJ]

? I don't give a damn about controlling your cultural sex life. I arrived at that conclusion 100% from following the logic of preventing rapes.

Go ahead and have your gay orgy furry-fetish rooftop sex while eating eggplants and quoting bible verses ironically, or whatever you want, as long as it's not rape.

And willingly having sex with somebody beyond a ~0% chance of being too inebriated to make proper decisions = unacceptable chance of rape. If you are correct that a ~0% chance is indeed at ~0.08 BAC, then that's about the right cutoff (I'm just taking your word for it on that)

often indulge in drunken sex and don't give a fuck about what you think of it.

People embezzle and make illegal moonshine and weave in and out of traffic too, and don't give a fuck what I think about it. What does this have anything to do with criminality of actions?

The law is still that you can have sex drunk and good luck changing it.

Actually no it is not in the vast majority of states. The threshold is usually (ever?) not clearly spelled out like in my recent hypothetical posts, but "too intoxicated to provide consent" is on the books almost everywhere, which is routinely interpreted in case law as applying well before the point of being blackout drunk. It is basically a case by case courtroom argument thing.

[Neonivek]

It is a fair viewpoint.

Feminism has very divergent intents when it comes to conservative type feminisms and more liberal/secular ones.

This is why I kind of dislike it when people attempt to speak "for feminism" because I can have two feminists telling me that a woman in a skimpy outfit that she picked and chose herself is either sexually liberated or sexually repressed.

I don't give a damn about controlling your cultural sex life. I arrived at that conclusion 100% from following the logic of preventing rapes.

Go ahead and have your gay orgy furry-fetish rooftop sex while eating eggplants and quoting bible verses ironically, or whatever you want, as long as it's not rape.

What he is saying is that you are effectively cloak and daggering. You are more accurately fighting alcohol culture then rape culture.

Which is true, there is a lack of practicality.

[GavJ]

What he is saying is that you are effectively cloak and daggering. You are more accurately fighting alcohol culture then rape culture.

I'm not saying anything about your right to get drunk. Go get as drunk as a fish every day if you want to. Just don't also rape people...

If by "fighting alcohol culture" you mean "raping people is something we like to culturally do while drinking" well then sure, guilty as charged, I guess I'm fighting alcohol culture in that context then. 


More specifically:

Other outcomes <-------Alcohol culture ----->  Rape culture
                                                                     ^
Other factors-------------------------------------/


The red portion is what I am fighting. Which has the effect of lessening (but not eliminating) rape culture (indicated by orange) and also removing the PART OF alcohol culture that might include raping (which should not be too controversial), also indicated by partial orange

[Morrigi]

Rape culture isn't actually a thing though.

https://rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-Task-Force-RAINN-Recommendations.pdf

[Neonivek]

Rape culture isn't actually a thing though.

Whenever I heard it, I always thought it was a metaphor for how people are genuinely interested in rape in the same way people are interested in violence, murder, and suicide.

But yeah strictly speaking there is no real rape culture.

I'm not saying anything about your right to get drunk. Go get as drunk as a fish every day if you want to. Just don't also rape people...

"You can drink all you want, but just stop having fun once your drunk"

MIND YOU! I am just trying to tell you how the person feels... I am always someone who believes you should exercise better judgment.