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[penguinofhonor]

Literally that entire article disagrees with you.

[Neonivek]

Literally that entire article disagrees with you.

Revisionist history. (well more accurate... interpretation)

I am sure it says that Christopher Columbus was a great guy too.

[penguinofhonor]

Well I can't argue with that. Do you call it the War of Northern Aggression too?

[Neonivek]

Actually I just read the article.

It doesn't contradict what I said.

[Helgoland]

Perhaps more accurately, without the previous change in society that piece of paper would've accomplished nothing, and even without that peace of paper and the entire war slavery would've been gone fifty or so years later.
The point being, radical action is sometimes necessary, but slow adaptation generally produces better results. You won't turn a sexist gun-totin' redneck into a feminist gun-totin' redneck; all you can do is help his kids become better people. And that's certainly not a radical idea.

[penguinofhonor]

and even without that peace of paper and the entire war slaavery would've been gone fifty or so years later.

How can you say this like fifty more years of people living in slavery isn't important?

[My Name is Immaterial]

I don't want to get involved in the discussion, but I have a question. Does anyone know why it's taken so long for her to release 6 out of 12 episodes?

[Rolepgeek]

Indeed;
Once someone has made up their mind, you cannot change it. The way our psychology works, we hate to admit we're wrong, so if someone challenges us, even if they have proof and shit, it makes uf dig in our heels harder and resist. It's sucky, but it's true; the only real way to be productive is to influence the people who haven't made a decision yet either way. There are, of course, a few minor exceptions to this, but by and large I've found it to be true; look at this, I mean, nearly 300 pages of arguing and no one has shifted their position so much as an inch.

Also, lijacote, it's bay12. We're all crazy here, even the sane ones. All in our own unique world-ending way. For my part, I'm a mad scientist. Don't take it personally.

Also, I'd love to see your sources for those claims, Neonivek. (though. In all honesty slavery hasn't changed much, just add the word 'wage' before it and everyone thinks you're fine  )

[Neonivek]

The Paper to me more accurately laid the groundwork for the changes that would occur over the next generations. It didn't do anything on its own.

Many of the emancipated slaves ended up... going back to slave labor, losing only the title of slave but being essentially slaves once more, and thus the immediate results of the emancipation proclamation was meaningless. All it meant was that an emancipated slave now had the ability to pick their poison but had pretty much no hope for a better life for them or their children (which you can still see, even today).

and even without that peace of paper and the entire war slaavery would've been gone fifty or so years later.

How can you say this like fifty more years of people living in slavery isn't important?

People were pretty much in slaver for the next 50 years... anyway. As well when we are talking about history we are talking about thousands of years. 50 years is a drop in the bucket.

Also, I'd love to see your sources for those claims, Neonivek. (though. In all honesty slavery hasn't changed much, just add the word 'wage' before it and everyone thinks you're fine  )

I always thought it was common knowledge that after the American Civil War the life of the average slave, emancipated or not, was... pretty much exactly the same. That the war did little to improve their lives in the immediate future.

In fact it is usually used as criticism that just because you "free" someone it doesn't mean they are actually free and is one of the things people cite when they talk about things like affirmative action.

There are, of course, a few minor exceptions to this, but by and large I've found it to be true; look at this, I mean, nearly 300 pages of arguing and no one has shifted their position so much as an inch.

I don't think anyone came in here expecting to convert anyone. I think people just wanted to share their opinions.

[Mindmaker]

I do not refer to any specific instance, I refer to the discourse of denial. "There is no sexism in the West", and other examples. Now I can add "it will fix itself" to that set.

Are you referring to some other argument a while back, or to the current one?
If it's the latter, I'm not seeing it.

[Rolepgeek]

No, it isn't, because we're talking about modern history. 50 years is a lifetime. 50 years contains millions upon millions of lives coming and going. People are real now, and talking about 50 years, 100 years ago, is nowhere near the same as 50 years, 1000 years ago, or 4000 years ago. 50 years ago is the civil rights movement and people protesting mixed-race marriages. Don't talk as if 50 years isn't a big deal by trying to abstractify it and equate it to greek history lessons. The USA has existed for maybe 250 years as a nation. 50 years is a big part of that bucket.

[Neonivek]

No, it isn't, because we're talking about modern history. 50 years is a lifetime. 50 years contains millions upon millions of lives coming and going. People are real now, and talking about 50 years, 100 years ago, is nowhere near the same as 50 years, 1000 years ago, or 4000 years ago. 50 years ago is the civil rights movement and people protesting mixed-race marriages. Don't talk as if 50 years isn't a big deal by trying to abstractify it and equate it to greek history lessons. The USA has existed for maybe 250 years as a nation. 50 years is a big part of that bucket.

250 years is a bit much... 1400 is Medieval. 1800 is industrial, 1700 is Renaisance... Guessing 150 years? *checks*

Dang you are right (I am also an idiot because that should have been obvious). Mind you American History is quite a bit longer then that... There is its discovery in the 1400s... and then there is a VERY Rich prehistory that spans thousands of years.

So as far as American History is concerned we are still talking 1000s of years.

You are right, All history is important and 1 day of terribleness is still terrible. I just have a rather desensitized view of history given that trying to find a good year is nearly impossible. Mind you I also try not to quantify horribleness as well.

Actually the history of the Native people of America is actually very interesting. They were actually quite technologically advanced too, but their technology levels (judging by the information I've been given) actually changed over time rather then being a constant increase we normally associate with technology.

[penguinofhonor]

That sounds really interesting. Do you have any links on it?

[Neonivek]

That sounds really interesting. Do you have any links on it?

On Pre-discovery Native American Culture and Archeological information?

Hmm... I got it from a book, but I can probably find an article.

[My Name is Immaterial]

I don't want to get involved in the discussion, but I have a question. Does anyone know why it's taken so long for her to release 6 out of 12 episodes?

Or has this thread moved beyond it's original topic, and I'm just making myself look like a fool.