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[Neonivek]

Yeah basically it is a parody on the circular logic and flip flopping people do when evaluating games.

Basically "The game is art, unless it says something I don't agree with" and "Games are a business, unless it sells something I don't like" and constantly switching between the two to justify the other.

Sort of... even I am confused.

[Fniff]

I think the confusion is the point. It's a weird viewpoint to hold.

[Reelya]

Kotaku: Father Hacks Zelda For His Daughter, Makes Link A Girl

[Reelya]

I just thought of  interesting point though,you often hear that this-or-that female protagonist could easily be replaced with a man without any changes to the plot - and that this is direct proof that she's really a male character who's just been skinned female.

But what if most male protagonists could just as easily be replaced by a woman without any changes to the plot - are they then "really a female character"? That's the same argument with the same evidence, but gender-flipped.

What would be more true to say is that the gender of most video game characters is only a "skin" and they are fundamentally gender-neutral, hence why so many "choose your gender" games don't have a problem with the plot.

[penguinofhonor]

I don't think you can draw that conclusion about most video game characters. Just ones in less character-driven games.

[Rolepgeek]

For many, yes. Though, I'd be interested to see someone flip the gender of every character in every game they come across, and see whether the plot still works/makes sense.

If the plot suddenly seems really weird or strange, there's probably something wrong with it(leaving aside things directly related to physical gender such as someone getting prostate cancer, or getting pregnant; though if someone being pregnant is their entire contribution to the plot, that's pretty fucked up anyway).

Which brings up the point of: why can't games let you choose either a male or female protagonist? I understand with many games that have cutscenes or 3d models, there can be a difficulty in that, but for many shooter games, many bullet hell games, basically any arcade game, etc., there's not much of a reason not to, if any. Hell, even Bastion works just fine with a female protagonist(not a particularly extreme example...), and most dating games would work fine with a male/female protagonist(mebbe the person playing them is gay/bi and wants to be able to associate with the character better, you dunno). And so on.

[Leafsnail]

I disagree.  If you can flip the gender of the protagonist without it mattering then that suggests that gender roles can't exist in the game world (since people would otherwise react differently to your character and their relationships).  That's ok for something aimed at kids or something simple, but if you want to tell a serious story set in the real world (or at least a world with a culture similar to ours) then I don't think it's good to just pretend that societal sexism doesn't exist.

[Rolepgeek]

No, Leafsnail, I'm saying flip everyone's gender around in the game, flip gender pronouns etc., but keep all other aspects of the game the same. If there's sexism in the world before, there still is now, just against a different gender. If that seems so much stranger than the original game, something's wrong in the picture; whether it's your own unconscious biases or the game plot and world itself, there's probably something the matter. Gender roles can still exist, they're just flipped. Which isn't a bad thing. It's variety.

[Neonivek]

Which brings up the point of: why can't games let you choose either a male or female protagonist?

Simple because then you dilute your main character. You are saying that even their gender identity is ambiguous and superficial that there is no real canon version. That they are nebulous and nearly non-existent.

There is a reason why games that allow you to change your gender tend to be blank slate characters devoid of anything but the most basic story or character. There is a reason why character customization isn't in a lot of games that could easily allow it as well. Why not have a Mario game where you can chose his appearance? his features are completely unimportant so why not?

You want that character's story. Not some shmoe. You want this sense that the character you are playing IS the hero of the story and not just your version of it.

The only game that did it somewhat creatively is Knight of the Old Republic 2 and one of the Dragon Quests where the gender you didn't chose dies. (A lot of games creatively post-game set up where both genders are characters who existed at the same time)

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that making a game where you can chose gender is a bad thing or that you couldn't do it creatively (heck for one game I wanted to make... I was going to have a gender flip option that changes every character's gender but keeps the dialog the same). Just that it isn't a "So what?" sort of deal that allowing you to switch genders isn't so banal that all games should allow it, but rather that it changes the type of story you are telling.

That's ok for something aimed at kids or something simple

Give kids more credit. Even they like good fiction and nuance. As well simple doesn't necessarily mean shallow, it just means something easy to understand.

That was nice of him.

I dislike the comments, though. Basically saying he shouldn't have done it because 'Link's a boy!' and such.

Welcome to fanfiction... Where if you don't have a gag reflex whenever you hear the words Genderflipping... you will.

That and people have a reflex mostly because "Pointless changes to characters in order to make them more popular" is a real thing usually defended with "But does it matter?" which is met with "Of course it matters, that isn't the same character".

Basically I understand the backlash... They shouldn't care and I doubt the daughter cares... but I understand it non-the-less.

Remember to people who get into fiction... the characters are essentially real and that is the point. To just swap their gender is the equivalent of teaching children that George Washington could have been a man or woman, and leaving his gender ambiguous, because his gender doesn't matter.

[Leafsnail]

No, Leafsnail, I'm saying flip everyone's gender around in the game, flip gender pronouns etc., but keep all other aspects of the game the same. If there's sexism in the world before, there still is now, just against a different gender. If that seems so much stranger than the original game, something's wrong in the picture; whether it's your own unconscious biases or the game plot and world itself, there's probably something the matter. Gender roles can still exist, they're just flipped. Which isn't a bad thing. It's variety.

What is your definition of "strange" if not "unusual/unfamiliar"?  Yes, I would find a game where something is the polar opposite of reality for no apparent reason strange.  I guess you could make a game based on that premise, but you'd probably want to make more of a point than "I made a regular game and then flipped all the genders because why not" if you were doing so.

[Rolepgeek]

First, Neonivek.

Most of the time, in the vast majority of games, the character's gender identity is not important to the story. It just isn't. Most of the time, in a shooter game, or an action-adventure RPG, or hell, Laura Croft games, or Metal Gear...the character could be the opposite gender, and it would really make zero difference to the plot.

Also, your example is incredibly flawed. To swap their gender is the equivalent of teaching children that a woman could also have led the American Revolution (if there was not such rampant sexism at the time), because gender really doesn't matter as to someone's capability and competence at a task.

Now Leafsnail.

My definition of strange is that you think it shouldn't be like this, that the setting is somehow wrong for switching gender roles like that. Otherwise the default is sexism against women in the game, which simply isn't necessary. But that wasn't my point anyway. I'm saying that if you try this for any given game, and then the game feels unplayable or the plot no longer makes sense etc., there's something wrong. Because in most cases, gender identity isn't all that important to the plot, unless pregnancy or sexism are also integral to the plot.

But in any case, seriously, why not? Why would it be bad if there was Larry Croft too? Or Solid Snake was a girl? Why couldn't Maria and Luigey go to save Prince Plum from Bowseria? You can say it makes them into a different character if you want, but it really doesn't. The only thing it changes is the gender. And yes, I know that's a large part of identity, I have personal experience with it, but when it comes to fighting? When it comes to saving people? When it comes to getting fat lewt? Gender doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter in games. Because when there are so many more games with must-be-male protagonists than games with must-be-female protagonists? There's something wrong with those demographics.

[Neonivek]

Most of the time, in the vast majority of games, the character's gender identity is not important to the story. It just isn't. Most of the time, in a shooter game, or an action-adventure RPG, or hell, Laura Croft games, or Metal Gear...the character could be the opposite gender, and it would really make zero difference to the plot.

But we aren't talking about them "Being a different gender from always ago" we are talking about them being an ambiguous gender or switching later on.

Which does indeed change the plot. Since it transforms them from a definite character into a vague one.

Also, your example is incredibly flawed. To swap their gender is the equivalent of teaching children that a woman could also have led the American Revolution (if there was not such rampant sexism at the time), because gender really doesn't matter as to someone's capability and competence at a task.

But does it matter for Washington's character or abilities? No. Just say Washington was so exceptional people didn't doubt her leadership. History is rife with female leaders.

In fact it would be MORE beneficial to teach children in school that George Washington was a woman and would get women more involved with history.

I mean it doesn't change the general story of his life. Sexism just didn't affect her because of her obvious skills and ability.

[DJ]

No, Leafsnail, I'm saying flip everyone's gender around in the game, flip gender pronouns etc., but keep all other aspects of the game the same. If there's sexism in the world before, there still is now, just against a different gender. If that seems so much stranger than the original game, something's wrong in the picture; whether it's your own unconscious biases or the game plot and world itself, there's probably something the matter. Gender roles can still exist, they're just flipped. Which isn't a bad thing. It's variety.

If you gender flipped the whole cast of The Witcher it'd still be sexist against women

[Rolepgeek]

Neonivek, being an 'ambiguous gender' outside of any single person's game experience is both redundant and kinda ridiculous. Not every game should, needs to, or will follow the same storyline as every other; it's about the individual player's experiences that define it as a story, right? And being able to choose the character's gender, or having it be random, doesn't make the character for that iteration of play ambiguously gendered. Besides which, it still doesn't matter. Vaarsuvius from Order of the Stick is a definite character without us ever knowing hir gender. A character is not vague simply because they could have either set of genitalia. That's not important enough to the character, in almost every game that isn't, say, a dating game, to make them less worthy of being a character, which is what it seems like you're implying here.

As for Washington: Yes. So why aren't games rife with female protagonists? Why do they not reflect this equality? That is the problem here. And I'm saying that it could be easily fixed simply by companies, once they finish with the game(if it's not part of a series yet), go through and flip a coin for each character's gender. If they need to, tweak here and there to accommodate things to the story if absolutely necessary(or to the player's immersion; if 3/4 couples were gay, even I would start having doubts).

[Rolepgeek]

I see you edited the comment, and misinterpreted what I was saying.

I wasn't saying the change the characters mid-game.

I was saying change the whole game to flip the genders, before starting a new game.