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[Jelle]

Blah, I promised myself I wouldn't engage in this discussion. One little post couldn't hurt I suppose...


About DA:O, I kind of assumed the lack of many female grey wardens was due the risk of being captured and the whole broodmother thing. Kind of a huge risk and a terrible fate.

Also I think the female representation was fairly good honestly. Top of my mind the prophet of the maker was female, as well as most of the church's clergy, wich is a stark contrast with most religion irl. There's also the possible ending of having a queen crowned, or having the player character become queen regent, so female leaders aren't out of the question. The leader of that elf group chose a female as his succesor. The dwarves have female paragons, including the one you meet. Admittedly they do have the rigid caste society thing going for them. The sequel (wich I shall not name!) also had a female leader for the templars wich is a fairly hands on male dominated organization. I'll not include flemmeth since she isn't really part of the settings society. But yeah I don't know, seems equally represented to me for the most part.


About fantasy settings sometimes being male dominated. It's a fairly natural thing to do since most inspiration for these settings is drawn from medieval times. It's also a little cliche. I don't see anything necesarily wrong with it, it's a work of fiction and it can add flavor to the setting.
That said, I certainly wouldn't mind a fantasy setting with a female dominated society. Definately a change from the common male dominated/gender equal settings.  Whould be interesting, I'd totally play it.

[Neonivek]

That said, I certainly wouldn't mind a fantasy setting with a female dominated society. Definately a change from the common male dominated/gender equal settings.  Whould be interesting, I'd totally play it.

Ignoring all women fantasy races and coincidental female dominated societies (for example Suikeoden 3 had one... but it was just that they didn't make a lot of male leaders for that group).

The usual risk is doing it BAAAADLY.

But I guess the issue is whenever they make a female dominated society they always have to make a big deal out of it, they always write this society as if it is supposed to be commentary for a guy instead of it just being "this society is just this way". Not that they couldn't make it a commentary, but it is just as likely to go as well as that dumb Hercules movie (which I hated, because it boiled down the Amazons to just "Women who are fed up with men because men are jerks").

[Jelle]

Not that they couldn't make it a commentary, but it is just as likely to go as well as that dumb Hercules movie (which I hated, because it boiled down the Amazons to just "Women who are fed up with men because men are jerks").

To be fair, any work featuring amazons is probably going to be inherently sexist. The entire concept behind the amazon were stories made up by a more sexist male dominated roman society in response to contact with the more gender neutral scythians and other similar iranian peoples, if I'm not mistaken. "Women who are fed up with men because men are jerks' is actually a fitting modernization of the fabled amazons imo.

[Rolan7]

About DA:O, I kind of assumed the lack of many female grey wardens was due the risk of being captured and the whole broodmother thing. Kind of a huge risk and a terrible fate.

Wait what?  *Checks the wiki* Oh, of COURSE.
So female captives are "usually" transformed into literal baby factories with hanging tits.  Through forcefeeding.

     First day, they come and catch everyone.
    Second day, they beat us and eat some for meat.
    Third day, the men are all gnawed on again.
    Fourth day, we wait and fear for our fate.
    Fifth day, they return and it's another girl's turn.
    Sixth day, her screams we hear in our dreams.
    Seventh day, she grew as in her mouth they spew.
    Eighth day, we hated as she is violated.
    Ninth day, she grins and devours her kin.
    Now she does feast, as she's become the beast.
    Now you lay and wait, for their screams will haunt you in your dreams.

This is from a woman dwarf Captain, cool, except she falls to corruption and "allowed the members of her expedition to be captured by darkspawn in order to breed more darkspawn".  Those silly women, huh?  Give them a little authority and bam, they're leading their squad into a rape trap.

But darkspawn are evil, of course.  Surely they do something awful to the male captive too!  Maybe it's just as vile and sexual.  Heck just look at the broodmothers, there's no reason they couldn't have been male captives.  So I look up the answer...

Oh, they work as craftsmen.

To be fair, people of both genders are commonly eaten.  But that's what happens to the survivors: skilled labor, or raped into fetish fuel, depending on gender.

Also I think the female representation was fairly good honestly. Top of my mind the prophet of the maker was female, as well as most of the church's clergy, wich is a stark contrast with most religion irl. There's also the possible ending of having a queen crowned, or having the player character become queen regent, so female leaders aren't out of the question. The leader of that elf group chose a female as his succesor. The dwarves have female paragons, including the one you meet. Admittedly they do have the rigid caste society thing going for them. The sequel (wich I shall not name!) also had a female leader for the templars wich is a fairly hands on male dominated organization. I'll not include flemmeth since she isn't really part of the settings society. But yeah I don't know, seems equally represented to me for the most part.


About fantasy settings sometimes being male dominated. It's a fairly natural thing to do since most inspiration for these settings is drawn from medieval times. It's also a little cliche. I don't see anything necesarily wrong with it, it's a work of fiction and it can add flavor to the setting.
That said, I certainly wouldn't mind a fantasy setting with a female dominated society. Definately a change from the common male dominated/gender equal settings.  Whould be interesting, I'd totally play it.

This isn't a historical setting, though.  Character creation says the genders are equal, and I think they're equal under the law, but then they filled the setting with people who openly scorn women - often directly to the (possibly female) PC's face.  It's a cheap way to make the setting seem more real, and a missed opportunity.

Side note unrelated to the above points:  The charismatic infiltrator demons who trick people into bad deals.  Are they professional looking devils?  Shapechangers who look human?  Of course not, they're naked purple succubi.  And yet people fall for their tricks because, uh, exposed boobies I guess?  I can't imagine how they convince straight women or gay men of anything.

[Rolepgeek]

Rolan, I'm putting forth the idea about it being sexist and even I disagree with (some of) what you're trying to claim. Yes, Broodmothers are female. That's based off of stuff that comes from nature, like insect hives and shit. The men can't make more darkspawn, so they don't. The dwarf captain was corrupted, as you said, so it's not about her gender, it's about darkspawn corrupting people. If it was a male captain who was corrupted, same thing would have happened with leading them into danger.

Also, you're being misleading about the Desire Demons. Yes, they appear as Succubi, which might say something about the way genders are portrayed, but they don't merely do sex-related trickery, first off. Anything related to your desire can be used. Just like there's Pride demons that do the same thing, only through a different manner. That, and the fact that I'm pretty sure they can take whatever form they wish if they're trying to appeal to you; pretty sure a Templar wouldn't 'fall in love' with one otherwise.

Other point: You don't capture a gray warden, if you're darkspawn. They kill you until they are overwhelmed and killed. If a gray warden gets captured(in the Deep Roads, that is), I really don't know if they even can become broodmothers what with their resistance to the darkspawn taint and all.

[Neonivek]

But Rolepgeek weren't you saying earlier that it is just a fantasy and thus should be held accountable?

You could easily have Broodmothers capable of being spawned from males or females... or even have no brood mothers whatsoever. OR have even males capable of giving birth to more Darkspawn.

---

As for Desire Demons... They take the form of the "desire" they are attributed to. They are beings of concept.

They aren't demons named "desire demons". They are Demons (well spirits is more accurate) that are the physical manifestations of desire and are thus called "Desire Demons"

[palsch]

Again, the whole setting issue is a cultural issue which can't really be separated from the games.

People claim that fantasy or other settings that depict sexism or sexist societies have to do so due to be accepted. Because people expect sexism in certain environments. Even if those environments are completely invented or otherwise grossly unrealistic/unrepresentative of the real life world they are referring to. The developers making an artistic choice to portray a certain environment ties their hands and forces them to show it as sexist. It's not that they want to write about sexist environments, just that they want it to be recognisable as a certain sub-type of setting, and that means making it sexist. Their artistic decisions mean they have no choice in the matter.

So... yeah. Not accepting that. The choice to portray any environment as sexist is as much a choice as any other aspect of a game. It might be a defensible choice and it might not be, but it's still a choice.

I think that DA:O is an interesting case where they did try to write an egalitarian society and fell into the trap of treating it as any other fantasy cliché environment, including sexism. Which is to say, the tropes about medieval fantasy being 'realistically' sexist are so common and ingrained that even writing within an egalitarian society they get trotted out time and time again.

[Neonivek]

But my counter for that Palsch is that just because the SETTING is sexist it doesn't mean the GAME needs to be. It doesn't mean the STORY needs to be.

It is an artistic choice because it doesn't matter. Genuinely sexist settings (instead of DA:O's less sexist then the 1950s-1970s) are rare.

[Rolepgeek]

But my counter for that Palsch is that just because the SETTING is sexist it doesn't mean the GAME needs to be.

And my counter to that is that it doesn't matter whether the setting is sexist, because the game still is. Made all the worse by its's claimsof egalitarianism. You can say it's just coincidence, but burying your head in the sand doesn't make the lion go away. That's a rather metric shitton of coincidence, if it's just coincidence.

As to your previous comment: Oh goody, you can do satire and strawman arguments! Goody for you. I do hope you understand the difference between creating a fantasy setting in which the culture need not necessarily be sexist, and a fantasy setting where the laws of biology (I know that's not a thing, but it's the best term I can think of) are different.

[palsch]

But my counter for that Palsch is that just because the SETTING is sexist it doesn't mean the GAME needs to be.

It might be a defensible choice and it might not be, but it's still a choice.

It obviously depends on what and how it's depicted. But in many games the defence is, "but of course it's sexist; it's set in the criminal underworld/pseudo-medieval pseudo-Europe/etc," and the sexism is just background dressing to be enjoyed or accepted by the player, not criticised or challenged in any way. I don't think that defence is valid in such cases.

[Neonivek]

And my counter to that is that it doesn't matter whether the setting is sexist, because the game still is.

I was speaking in general. Not of Dragon Age Origins.

Oh goody, you can do satire and strawman arguments!

IT is your very own argument which is that creators have a choice as to how they do fiction and should be responsible for how they present things even with how they relate to real life.

That games that are not a documentary are at fault if they try any amount of realism that skews the gender boundary.

The fact that Brood mothers even need to exist would thus fall under that. The fact that females even need to be transformed to become a brood mother (instead of just anyone doing so) also falls under that.

In fact you can even make an argument that Broodmothers are just a way for Dragon Age to extra-victimize women because it creates a monster that just eliminates a woman's role to simple reproduction, a "rape metaphor".

Why do Broodmothers get an excuse just because "Women can reproduce in real life" when they could easily make it a transformation that doesn't rely on original gender or even just write them out?

But in many games the defence is, "but of course it's sexist; it's set in the criminal underworld/pseudo-medieval pseudo-Europe/etc," and the sexism is just background dressing to be enjoyed or accepted by the player, not criticised or challenged in any way. I don't think that defence is valid in such cases.

But that isn't an issue, not everything needs to be challenged within the setting or else it becomes preachy and you assume the audience to have the cursiory knowledge to know that what is presented to you is wrong. So long as it doesn't admonish nor play into it.

The reason why Grand Theft Auto is bad, which you are referencing, isn't because the criminal underworld is bad... but because count the number of important women in the games. Then how are they depicted? Do women do nothing in this setting in real life(no they do do things)? The issues with game doesn't come out in the setting, but in the game.

[penguinofhonor]

As to your previous comment: Oh goody, you can do satire and strawman arguments! Goody for you. I do hope you understand the difference between creating a fantasy setting in which the culture need not necessarily be sexist, and a fantasy setting where the laws of biology (I know that's not a thing, but it's the best term I can think of) are different.

I really don't think you can defend Dragon Age with "the laws of biology".

It obviously depends on what and how it's depicted. But in many games the defence is, "but of course it's sexist; it's set in the criminal underworld/pseudo-medieval pseudo-Europe/etc," and the sexism is just background dressing to be enjoyed or accepted by the player, not criticised or challenged in any way. I don't think that defence is valid in such cases.

This is what I was trying to say earlier, just put a lot better.

[Rolan7]

Rolan, I'm putting forth the idea about it being sexist and even I disagree with (some of) what you're trying to claim. Yes, Broodmothers are female. That's based off of stuff that comes from nature, like insect hives and shit. The men can't make more darkspawn, so they don't. The dwarf captain was corrupted, as you said, so it's not about her gender, it's about darkspawn corrupting people. If it was a male captain who was corrupted, same thing would have happened with leading them into danger.

If the darkspawn can warp normal women into those giant hive things, they could warp men the same way.  The concept is a collection of fetishes, and men are completely passed over (by the sexual aspects).  Why don't the broodmothers need corrupted broodfathers to breed?  Because that's not as popular a fetish.

Also, you're being misleading about the Desire Demons. Yes, they appear as Succubi, which might say something about the way genders are portrayed, but they don't merely do sex-related trickery, first off. Anything related to your desire can be used. Just like there's Pride demons that do the same thing, only through a different manner. That, and the fact that I'm pretty sure they can take whatever form they wish if they're trying to appeal to you; pretty sure a Templar wouldn't 'fall in love' with one otherwise.

That's partly my point.  Their trickery isn't all sex-based, but their form is.  They're supposed to represent desire - which might mean wanting power, or followers, or money, or knowledge - but then they only appear as sexy seductresses.  As if the only thing guys really want is sex, and straight women or gay men aren't worth seducing.  It's a missed opportunity, and I don't see any evidence that they can change forms.  There seem to be several different desire demons, who look different, but all are sexy women in skimpy costumes.

Other point: You don't capture a gray warden, if you're darkspawn. They kill you until they are overwhelmed and killed. If a gray warden gets captured(in the Deep Roads, that is), I really don't know if they even can become broodmothers what with their resistance to the darkspawn taint and all.

I don't know if this is a spoiler, but

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Apparently gray warden resistance wears off eventually, inflicting all the accrued taint on them, but they can tell when it's coming and try to die gloriously first?

It doesn't matter though, the PC being immune doesn't counter what I was saying.

[Neonivek]

It is what I call the "Perverse sexiness" (for lack of a better term). Where they do something that is supposed to be sexy but make it horrid.

I am sure there is a better term.

[Jelle]

Oh dear, DA broodmother and rape parallels. I'm overcome with regret for having brought it up.