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[penguinofhonor]

You are trying to change things in completely wrong way. The people who make video games should be free to make games whatever they want them to be. And they want them to be good-selling. So if you want games to be non-sexist, you should make people view sexist games as bad games, not try and kick the sexism out of the games by... Well, any other means. It isn't a good idea to try and go on how the games are sexist - maybe they are, maybe they aren't, that's not the point. Go and tell people sexism is bad. They will stop buying sexist games, and people will stop making them. It's that simple.

Who is the "you" and what is the "wrong way"? I haven't seen anyone in this thread recommending censoring game developers or anything. Unless I've missed something, most people have supported voting with your wallet.

[NobodyPro]

You are trying to change things in completely wrong way. The people who make video games should be free to make games whatever they want them to be. And they want them to be good-selling. So if you want games to be non-sexist, you should make people view sexist games as bad games, not try and kick the sexism out of the games by... Well, any other means. It isn't a good idea to try and go on how the games are sexist - maybe they are, maybe they aren't, that's not the point. Go and tell people sexism is bad. They will stop buying sexist games, and people will stop making them. It's that simple.

Who is the "you" and what is the "wrong way"? I haven't seen anyone in this thread recommending censoring game developers or anything. Unless I've missed something, most people have supported voting with your wallet.

Perhaps BlindKitty is addressing Sarkeesian?

[Vattic]

The art theft issue is resolved.  Check the most recent update.

Unless I failed at reading comprehension the update post says it's still ongoing.

Ahem.

Literally the top post on her Tumblr.

Ah thank you. I mistakenly thought the link would have been edited into the second post like it was into the first.

[scriver]

Well, I only watched the most recent videos, and I must say that if her points is "Women are underrepresented in meaningful role, leaving them only as cardboard, sexualized NPCs", she did a terrible job of getting it across, or maybe I'm just stupid. What I got was "Look, they're beating UP WOMEN!" which seemed stupid because in all of those games you're going to be beating up men in the same way.

If by the latest videos you mean the latest video that was linked in this thread wasn't about "they're beating up women", it was explicitly about women as sex objects in games, and how in games sex is frequently conflated with violence or just plain asocial behaviour, and how game design can actively encourage these behaviours (through both active gameplay "bonuses" and such, and narratives). It contained no complains about beating up, for example, pedestrians who just happened to be women, but concerned itself explicitly with instances of sex objects.

[Neonivek]

You're right, you should be scolded. It's a passive attitude that allows thing to perpetuate. I hate to have to make the analogy, but it's the strongest one, and therefore the one most likely to make you stop and actually think; America during WWII. It wasn't our problem.

Just because something doesn't affect you directly doesn't mean you shouldn't bother with it. That's an apathetic, immoral attitude

Look these conversations go much better without me. So in this case apathy is the MORAL attitude I should be taking.

It is a win-win. Also why are you complaining? You didn't understand over half the things I said and thought I was arguing FOR sexism.

I know some of you do what you can to advocate non-sexist games by buying them. That's a good idea, and I completely agree to this line of thinking.

That is kind of silly. As if non-sexist is the atypical videogame instead of the majority.

[penguinofhonor]

Perhaps BlindKitty is addressing Sarkeesian?

I mean, I don't see any of his points applying to her either. Has she advocated censorship? And telling her to "Go and tell people sexism is bad" would be pretty weird since she's kind of already doing that.

[Mindmaker]

THESE ARE COMMONLY EXPRESSED OPINIONS THE OTHER WAY AROUND. I HEAR THEM CONSTANTLY. PEOPLE, STOP TELLING ME THIS SHIT DOESN'T EXIST AND IT ISN'T A FUCKING PROBLEM. I DON'T CARE IF YOU LIVE IN A VACUUM IN WHICH NO MISOGYNY IS EVER EXPRESSED, BECAUSE THAT IS A BUBBLE, NOT THE WORLD.

THESE ARE NOT COMMONLY EXPRESSED OPINIONS THE OTHER WAY AROUND. I HAVE NEVER HEARD THESE SAID IN ANY SERIOUS CAPACITY. PEOPLE, STOP TELLING ME THIS SHIT EXITS AND IS A FUCKING PROBLEM. I DON"T CARE IF YOU LIVE IN A BUBBLE WHERE LUDICROUS STRAWMEN EXIST, BECAUSE THAT IS A BUBBLE, NOT THE WORLD.

I'm going to start by saying: you're wrong. They are. Just because you don't see them, doesn't mean they don't exist. Do you not believe in racism, either? Because there's plenty of shit to prove that wrong. But to give an example of why you're wrong; your logic also allows the following statement: "I have never gotten malaria, therefore malaria only exists in tiny isolated bubbles, and isn't actually a serious disease capable of threatening many people." If you replace "malaria" with "smallpox" then this is partially true. It's a rectangle-square situation, and you yelling back makes you seem like an asshole(and from the way you've been posting, I've been getting the impression that that's correct), and a misogynist. Do you honestly think misogyny isn't a problem because you, as a man, have never been subjected to it? Really?

I think his point was, unless I misuderstood, that "Your bubble isn't any more true than my bubble and neither represents the world".
Which is something I agree with.

@Sharkeesian:
I wouldn't be bothered by her, if she didn't claim that she was doing it nurture "open dialogue" and then proceeding with either blocking all comments, or needing to have them approved by a moderator, which never happens if you have any sort of dissenting opionion (I know, I actually tried).
They was she presented the whole "debate" with one side being the poor feminists (which looked more like feminist circlejerk to me) and on the other side only evil trolls/haters/neckbeards was disgusting. She ignored all of the "grey area" of reasonable people looking for discussion and didn't adress their concerns or criticism even once.

Not to mention that her whole kickstarter and her own background were rather dubious.

[Criptfeind]

I think his point was, unless I misuderstood, that "Your bubble isn't any more true than my bubble and neither represents the world".
Which is something I agree with.

Which of course, you would be wrong to do.

Even accepting that everyone is living in their own little bubble, RPgeek is still correct. He is saying this thing is a issue. The other person is saying it's not a issue. For RPgeek to be right it needs to be a issue anywhere, which it clearly is in the bubble he lives in. For the other person to be correct it would have to not be a issue anywhere.

A problem doesn't need to be world wide to be a problem. On the other hand non existent problem must not exist everywhere for it to not exist.


And furthermore, I've read BlindKittys post like five times, and I still don't understand it. Even if I don't precisely agree with him this thread appears to be exactly what he is advocating for. Even Sharkeesian seems to be what he is saying is the correct way to do it. But the general tone of his post seems to imply that he is against what is being said in this thread and probably against Sharkeesian as well. Can someone clarify?

[Neonivek]

Your being fooled by the way one person is making their argument Criptfeind and turning it into a polarizing response.

RPgeek is saying it is an all encompassing opinion and the other is saying that it isn't that common of an issue.

As a side note the size of a problem can indicate if it is a problem. For example while one could say crime existing is a problem, another person can say that there is such little crime that what is left is immutable and thus the fact that it exists is a non-issue. The existence of a problem doesn't necessarily make it a problem (hurray for paradox)

I honestly don't understand why this keeps happening in this conversation but whenever someone disagrees with a single point someone makes everyone instantly assumes that disagreement means that person is 100% on the other side. Though I am glad it isn't just me it is happening to.

[Rolepgeek]

I think his point was, unless I misuderstood, that "Your bubble isn't any more true than my bubble and neither represents the world".
Which is something I agree with.

See, Neonivek, Mindmaker, do you know why I find it hard to believe you when you say this? Several reasons. First off, you aren't women. So how the fuck can you honestly believe that you have as much or more knowledge about how common this is in the world than someone it actually will affect directly? Sexism is so ingrained in our culture that you probably see it all the time and just don't notice it as being sexism. And to respond to BlindKitty: the problem is like racism. Everyone knows that sexism/racism is bad. What nobody seems to understand, is what sexism and racism are. Anita's videos are trying to point this out for you people. I'm trying to point it out for you people.

It really is that common of an issue, though. As far as I remember, Anita received death threats because if her videos.

But to respond to an earlier post; I'm not saying you're arguing for sexism, Neonivek(at least not on purpose), but basically, you need to help expand on the arguments like you've said has needed to be done, or you need to leave, and stay gone, because otherwise you are contributing nothing useful to the discussion.

As well, my bubble doesn't represent the world. Neither does your bubble. The difference is, I see a shittn of other bubbles that also look like this, so I can extrapolate that this is, in fact, an issue. You guys not thinking it's an issue, is a symptom of it, in fact. Of just how bad it is.

[Dutchling]

I think his point was, unless I misuderstood, that "Your bubble isn't any more true than my bubble and neither represents the world".
Which is something I agree with.

See, Neonivek, Mindmaker, do you know why I find it hard to believe you when you say this? Several reasons. First off, you aren't women. So how the fuck can you honestly believe that you have as much or more knowledge about how common this is in the world than someone it actually will affect directly?

(...)

As well, my bubble doesn't represent the world. Neither does your bubble. The difference is, I see a shittn of other bubbles that also look like this, so I can extrapolate that this is, in fact, an issue. You guys not thinking it's an issue, is a symptom of it, in fact. Of just how bad it is.

If you want him to stop using anecdotal evidence you should probably stop doing it yourself too.

Also, extrapolating using anecdotal evidence is probably the worst idea I've ever heard.

[Graknorke]

As well, my bubble doesn't represent the world. Neither does your bubble. The difference is, I see a shittn of other bubbles that also look like this, so I can extrapolate that this is, in fact, an issue. You guys not thinking it's an issue, is a symptom of it, in fact. Of just how bad it is.

"See, the fact that you can't see it means it MUST be true!" - Every conspiracy theorist ever.

Arguing that something is there because the other person can't see it isn't going to convince them at all. A better thing to do would be to find examples of this thing existing. Which is apparently extremely difficult if the quality of examples used in the video is anything to go by.

[Neonivek]

Rolepgeek don't play the strawman. Me being male has no bearing on my ability to see with my eyes, hearing with my ears, and thinking with my brain.

What you are saying "IS" sexist and you have completely and utterly tried to devalue my opinion in this discussion on the basis of me being male... and you don't get any sense of irony whatsoever? No sense of hypocrisy? No sense of vicious cycling?

Now how many guys want to be in these kinds of debates under the condition of "Well your a guy, you clearly don't know and I am not going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't saying something scummy. Clearly your just deluded with an opinion of dirt". Well WHAT A COINCIDENCE MEN DON'T HELP ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN OPINION. I mean really... No sense of irony whatsoever? seriously?

 

I'm not saying you're arguing for sexism, Neonivek

You said that several times. I'd have an easier time believing you if you didn't contradict this point several times.

What nobody seems to understand, is what sexism and racism are

And NO one... has one definition no matter what side of the coin they are on. Hence why there is a need for discussion.

People aren't blind, they have differing opinions.

[sal880612m]

Most men don't listen to us.

The men that do have an obligation to speak to other men. That's what being a good ally is. Leverage your power to demand better conditions for others.

I have stepped in and said that certain behaviour isn't acceptable twice. Once I got thanked, the other time I got punched in the face by the guy and called down for saying anything by the woman. Doing that is something I am only willing to do IRL for people I know to some degree and only then if I honestly believe the behaviour is unacceptable and I was present for it. I have so very little trust in anyone anymore to act on one person's story after the fact. There are also times when I feel needing men to step in in any way goes against part of the feminist movement and that succeeding would be both more meaningful and rewarding without men in at best a peripheral role. This could easily be me being idealistic in the belief that you don't need men out there picketing for you as you need them not out there picketing against you. That and I tend to take things way too literally.

Truthfully I find this topic very draining to discuss, I don't really disagree with the feminist views on this and I think positive changes should be made. So maybe I should just stay out of it.

I think she's saying that many men need to learn about feminism from other men that are knowledgeable about feminism.  Knowledgeable shouldn't be confused with "thinks he's knowledgeable".

Reads to me like she is saying it is wrong to do nothing when you see there is a problem. On this my views are informed by how females in my life think and this is what they have actually told me. They obviously don't mean step in all the time or that doing so is a good thing but that if I see a male coworker being a dickhead to a female coworker because she happens to be female and she has made it clear he is to no effect, I shouldn't just say nothing and let him think doing so is okay. I should say you're being an ass and you really should cut it out.

[scriver]

@Sharkeesian:
I wouldn't be bothered by her, if she didn't claim that she was doing it nurture "open dialogue" and then proceeding with either blocking all comments, or needing to have them approved by a moderator, which never happens if you have any sort of dissenting opionion (I know, I actually tried).
They was she presented the whole "debate" with one side being the poor feminists (which looked more like feminist circlejerk to me) and on the other side only evil trolls/haters/neckbeards was disgusting. She ignored all of the "grey area" of reasonable people looking for discussion and didn't adress their concerns or criticism even once.

Mindmaker, you have to realise any kind of "free for all" commenting system would only overflow with hate and bile. That's not where good discussions are held.