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Author Topic: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'  (Read 309240 times)

Baffler

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2625 on: June 16, 2014, 11:29:30 pm »

*backs away slowly.*
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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2626 on: June 17, 2014, 12:37:38 am »

So let's start off. His first point, about the Dragon Dragon Neon. He tries to make the point that since a woman, at one point during the game, crotch-shots the boss, that's it's obviously not sexist in the way she describes. What he neglects to mention is the fact that this is the only time she does anything, and is only done after the main (male) character does literally everything else, trying to save her after she gets captured by a goon. She only hits the boss to show how weak he is, that he can be beaten by a woman, after the main character defeats him, showing the level he's been reduced to.

Moving on. He talks about games not being meant specifically to be oppressive. He's right. That doesn't change the fact that they are. They're made to be fun to play...for men. So that the companies can make a profit by appealing to what they consider to be the more important demographic.

Moving on. He seems to be implying that because she says that the damsel in distress role isn't a particularly positive one for women, and is extremely, exceedingly, prolific, that she doesn't understand relationships. But that's completely missing the point. The point is that; where are the games in which it's a guy in distress, and the guy's girlfriend who has to save him? I know it happens often enough in plenty of stories that I've read that it's a perfectly valid plot device, just like damsel in distress. That's not the issue. The issue is when it's so overwhelmingly used, and makes it so that, for the player, the girl becomes the goal and the prize, and thus objectified, thereby promoting unhealthy relationships.

Moving on. Easily recognized logical fallacy time, yay! This time, kids, it's the 'black-or-white' logical fallacy; presenting two options when, in reality, there are more. In this case, the additional option is, you know, calling the police and letting the trained professionals handle it, instead of going out, risking getting yourself killed, and the person you love still being in jeopardy. That's the healthy relationship; controlling your initial urges in order to ensure the maximum chance for their safety. But lets backtrack a second. He's making the assumption here, that the damsel in distress plotline is a given. That it's basically required; the only way to have this story take place. It could just as easily be the guy punching you in the face and taking a valued object; in fact, that would be just about the same in every way. Which is where the idea of objectification comes from. *gasp* Hey look it ties into itself like that! Weird, isn't it? Or hell, injecting you with a very slow-acting poison and taunting you with the antidote would work too. Oh look, more turning of the idea on it's ear; he's trying to use ad hominem to say that she's wrong because she doesn't view the character in the game as if it was a real-life person, but let me ask; do you? Yes, obviously if a loved one is hurt, you want to help them. But this isn't a loved one being hurt. This is a game, in which a character's loved one is being hurt. You have no attachment to them. Thus, they become a goal, not a loved one. Thus, they become an object, not a person.

Moving on. Oh boy, more logical fallacies! Gather 'round, kids! This time, it's a good one! Ah, the classic strawman, taking the argument out of context, into a place where it's not meant to be used and has little relevance(though it does apply, hilariously enough, just not in the way he thinks it does; patients are objects, in most ways, to doctors. Valuable, important objects that mean someone dies if you break them, but for the duration of the stay, you're an object. In return, you get to live. Not a bad trade-off, for a necessary service. Unlike sexism, such a thing is nigh-impossible to break, because in order to get better, if you don't have the knowledge yourself, you have to

Moving on. More of the same, more of the same. Blahblahblah claiming her point is that you shouldn't save abducted people when it's actually that you shouldn't use that as a plot device so damned much, blahblahblah...Weird, a lot of this seems familiar for some reason.

Moving on. I don't want to touch this. Not with a really long stick. It seems overwhelmingly obvious to me why this next part is so very false and terrible, and thus I find it hard to explain. If you want me to, I can try, but for the moment...ech.

Moving on. The reason these games are like they are is because the game designers think this is the best way to make money. Yes, gamers can be very sexist. So, the solution, is to point out the sexism in games, so people complain about it and stop buying those games, so they don't make money, so they change, so they don't imprint sexist values on future generations. Oh boy, and he's saying that she's promoting sexism because she likes to wear makeup! OH BOI! How wonderful, him attacking her for her appearance. Just like rapist victim-blamers do. Yes, I'm making that analogy. It's a valid one here, because they're both sexist. And then strawman argument that manages to attack her personally-bravo for that, that takes skill right there-; maybe, just maybe, she's insecure about herself personally, and uses makeup to make herself feel better, just like all the beauty magazines and shit try to make happen? Now, I doubt that this is the case, but if it was, then he's just being an asshole. A bigger asshole, I should say. She never made any reference to makeup and the like on women in real life for a reason. Because it's not the same, and people know this. He knows it too, he just doesn't care.

Alright, let's address his constant use of the word 'patriarchy'. It's a buzzword. It's also not what she's talking about. She's talking about an overarching cultural norm and pervasiveness in our society that perpetuates sexism. Not some conspiracy theory.

Moving on. Claiming she's not taking the right approach, I've already pointed out why this is a good approach above, and she is indeed trying to be an empowered woman; empowered doesn't mean 'masculine' as many people think it does. Marketing games in a hostile market isn't exactly an easy task, nor is it what she's got training it.

Moving on. YES WE UNDERSTAND PROFIT THANK YOU, YOU CAN SHUT UP ABOUT IT NOW. Wait, he just randomly claims that games without sexism in them aren't viable? What? I know for a fact that that's not true. Also how about the fact that I really doubt she makes any substantial amount of money from her videos. But yes, we need to take things one step at a time; women aren't interested in games because games are antagonistic towards them. Thus, making games for woman won't turn out as well as for men. So stop making games antagonistic towards women.

Moving on. Alright, this makes very little sense, and I'm not fully capable of understanding why 'not a feminist' and 'member of the evil conspiratorial patriarchy' are the same thing. But yes, Mulan is set in a sexist culture and shit, that's the point of the movie, and yes, the movie is, in fact, somewhat sexist! Anyway. See, what he doesn't get is she's not saying 'it's only favorable in masculine personalities', she's saying 'these are positive traits, these are negative ones, and this is what they're most commonly associated with'. She's pointing out that society attributes only a very few to women, not perpetuating it.

Moving on. Okay, if you're going to take that literally, alright, I can half buy it. But the problem is, she's talking in the modern sense. A woman can drive a tank as well as a man. A woman can run a business as well as a man(if allowed to get into the position with the right qualifications etc. etc.). She's not talking about bloody arm-wrestling contests. So much misdirection you lob around here, sir!

Moving on. The rest of the video is basically worthless insults and ego-preening, so I think I'm done. What she says, is demonstrably, not, as he puts it, 'bollox'. What he says, on the other hand?

Well, it's bollox.

Anyhow my point wasn't "just give up" it was simply "I cannot be that bad, because if it was then there is no point".

and with that my "not my problem" time is back on. Which given how things went in here, I should be scolded for leaving "not my problem".
You're right, you should be scolded. It's a passive attitude that allows thing to perpetuate. I hate to have to make the analogy, but it's the strongest one, and therefore the one most likely to make you stop and actually think; America during WWII. It wasn't our problem.

Just because something doesn't affect you directly doesn't mean you shouldn't bother with it. That's an apathetic, immoral attitude.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 12:39:12 am by Rolepgeek »
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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2627 on: June 17, 2014, 01:05:27 am »

8 pages overnight.

Yep. Not going here.
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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2628 on: June 17, 2014, 01:24:42 am »

Everything Rolepgeek said. I'm not particularly fond of Anita Sarkeesian given her irresponsible treatment of the Tropes Vs. Women series (which is bordering on fraud at this point), stealing artwork without credit, etc. But that video is absolute bullshit, filled with logical fallacies and pointless vitriol.

I can understand ignorance, but the guy in that video seems to be willfully misrepresenting Anita's arguments to make his point. All he's doing is making himself and any that think like him look bad. I don't get it.
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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2629 on: June 17, 2014, 02:18:06 am »

Yeah. I respect Sarkeesian for dealing with the entire fucking internet jumping down her throat and how it's treated her in general, but at this point I feel fairly strongly that she was the wrong person for this project.
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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2630 on: June 17, 2014, 02:45:06 am »

Then again, I'm afraid that in the current situation you need the wrong person.

Others might have folded for the pressure, so you need a rather a convinced and self righteous person to do  things. Then again, she might be doing more damage than good, depending on the situation.
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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2631 on: June 17, 2014, 02:54:26 am »

Yeah, basically I agree with Vector and Gatleos and RPGeek. The problem is real. Her treatment of it is not very good.

But to her credit, her videos at least prompt discussion, as exemplified by this very thread, where people that actually are better at this but don't feel like taking the whole internet in one go can explain the problem.
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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2632 on: June 17, 2014, 02:57:19 am »

But to her credit, her videos at least prompt discussion, as exemplified by this very thread, where people that actually are better at this but don't feel like taking the whole internet in one go can explain the problem.

I would do it, actually considered it, but I have the camera presence of a rock and tend to kind of get unfocused and confused when I'm speaking. Hence why I'm not doing it.
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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2633 on: June 17, 2014, 03:36:21 am »

So, I want to let you know what it seems like you're saying here.
What it seems like you're saying, at least to me, is that it's women's fault that they allow people to be sexist. Which in turn smarts of victim-blaming. You're saying that because they aren't standing up(except they are, that's what this whole feminist movement is, that's what this discussion topic is, that's what all this is) for themselves, that it's their own fault that people are being prejudiced against them. That's the same mentality that rapists who say 'well, they didn't stop me, so obviously they wanted it' use. Think about that for a second. Now think if you really want to have that mentality.
This isn't what I meant but I do see how it is implied by what I said. I have seen and heard far more examples of women staying in abusive, whether physical or not, relationships than walking away or standing up for themselves. So it is more that I think more women need to do things like that, and I was lax in acknowledging the ones that have done and do so. I view that as the woman in question changing. Ideally the men wouldn't be like that or would change themselves but I honestly don't believe the men who engage in that sort of behaviour are ever going to. So while what is happening or has happened isn't the woman's fault, for the situation to improve more often than not she is the one that has to change. I honestly don't know if I still sound like I am blaming the victim but there isn't much I can do if you choose to take it that way and I won't pretend I believe the men are likely to change when I don't believe they are, at least not unless other things change first. If that doesn't help make clear what I mean, I really don't know how to phrase it and will be forced to let it drop.

Do you know the biggest problem with that mentality? Yes, it has a kernel of truth; in order for change to happen, they have to stand up for themselves. Unfortunately, when they do, guess how some people react? They react with anger, with fear, lashing out and hitting women who try to speak for themselves, figuratively and literally. So it's no wonder why people don't want to try and change the status quo, when trying to change the status quo could result in them getting attacked for trying to have equality.
... ... 
I am sure someone more versed in history can put together a list of historical figures assassinated for trying to change things, or a list of wars fought against change.
Either you didn't read my original post or chose to ignore it. I am well aware of how violently people can lash out in regards to change and this isn't limited only to women. History makes it more than clear that it is to be expected when trying to change things. Doesn't make it right or good just that you can't expect to try and change things and have everyone be happy about it or willing to go along with it. The world is far from perfect and certainly isn't as good as it should or could be, but we can't base our actions and what we expect as responses could bes and should bes.

1- This is an issue in general, and therefore it's useless to pick any specific example to try and start with, particularly not media which imparts messages and shapes how people think.

2- And so, of course, we should completely ignore it and leave it to their real-life female friends to help.

Also, have you ever considered why people think there aren't many female gamers? It's because gamers are sexist, and many will bully and abuse any women they see playing the game. That's where the whole 'get back in the kitchen' thing comes from, as far as I know.

1- I agree it is a general issue, I was pointing out that there is, what I considered a substantial difficulty that I felt negated any value in picking video games because it was a younger industry.

2- I am not saying we should ignore it. I am saying no amount of change in gaming is going to have anyway near as much effect as females in someones life not accepting those behaviours will. Maybe I'm the only person that thinks that way but I think people are deluding themselves if they believe the opposite is true. It may have a positive effect on how women view themselves which could lead to the latter but that gets circular and I feel changing it in video games won't produce results for at least a generation.

I think there aren't many female gamers because of how I define gamers, what I consider gamers, and how few females I know and have known that fill those criteria in comparison to how many males I know and have known that do. It may be anecdotal or whatever but I have a very definite set of condition that qualify someone as a gamer, one that in all honesty I fail to meet half the time myself. The one study I have seen that indicates a significant portion of gamers are female includes a set of games that I think are basically if not totally irrelevant to this discussion. It's one thing if a ton of females play Zelda and entirely different if a ton of females play bejeweled or solitaire or sudoku and still an entirely different thing if a ton of women would play Zelda if the current practices changed but currently don't.

As to the rest I don't know what to say, I am aware it happens I think it is wrong but I haven't seen it IRL and I don't trust over half of what I see on the internet. I refuse to commit on rumor in a medium where misinterpretations are as rife as they can be on the net. Seeing someone being outright mean, nasty or sexist is one thing and there are certain things that do not need to be said or done but there is a whole list of things that can be taken multiple ways and very rarely have I seen people say things that are only interpret-able in only a single way. Besides saying I am against it there isn't much I can or would feel comfortable doing about any incidences I am not present for. Generally I feel that if someone asks you to stop using a word or behaving a certain way you should have enough basic respect to do so if the request is reasonable. ie, someone asking you to stop using the word 'the' on an forum that is primarily english writing is totally unreasonable.

Most men don't listen to us.

The men that do have an obligation to speak to other men. That's what being a good ally is. Leverage your power to demand better conditions for others.
I have stepped in and said that certain behaviour isn't acceptable twice. Once I got thanked, the other time I got punched in the face by the guy and called down for saying anything by the woman. Doing that is something I am only willing to do IRL for people I know to some degree and only then if I honestly believe the behaviour is unacceptable and I was present for it. I have so very little trust in anyone anymore to act on one person's story after the fact. There are also times when I feel needing men to step in in any way goes against part of the feminist movement and that succeeding would be both more meaningful and rewarding without men in at best a peripheral role. This could easily be me being idealistic in the belief that you don't need men out there picketing for you as you need them not out there picketing against you. That and I tend to take things way too literally.

Truthfully I find this topic very draining to discuss, I don't really disagree with the feminist views on this and I think positive changes should be made. So maybe I should just stay out of it.
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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2634 on: June 17, 2014, 04:32:20 am »

The art theft issue is resolved.  Check the most recent update.

While I agree with most of her conclusions in this video, the explanation felt subtly off.  This might be the logical fallacies that Gatleos referred to.  I've only watched it once through, so I haven't really digested it enough to say exactly what is bugging me yet.  Actually, I expected to disagree with her more, before watching.


Most men don't listen to us.

The men that do have an obligation to speak to other men. That's what being a good ally is. Leverage your power to demand better conditions for others.
I have stepped in and said that certain behaviour isn't acceptable twice. Once I got thanked, the other time I got punched in the face by the guy and called down for saying anything by the woman. Doing that is something I am only willing to do IRL for people I know to some degree and only then if I honestly believe the behaviour is unacceptable and I was present for it. I have so very little trust in anyone anymore to act on one person's story after the fact. There are also times when I feel needing men to step in in any way goes against part of the feminist movement and that succeeding would be both more meaningful and rewarding without men in at best a peripheral role. This could easily be me being idealistic in the belief that you don't need men out there picketing for you as you need them not out there picketing against you. That and I tend to take things way too literally.

Truthfully I find this topic very draining to discuss, I don't really disagree with the feminist views on this and I think positive changes should be made. So maybe I should just stay out of it.

I think she's saying that many men need to learn about feminism from other men that are knowledgeable about feminism.  Knowledgeable shouldn't be confused with "thinks he's knowledgeable".
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Gatleos

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2635 on: June 17, 2014, 04:52:31 am »

The art theft issue is resolved.  Check the most recent update.

While I agree with most of her conclusions in this video, the explanation felt subtly off.  This might be the logical fallacies that Gatleos referred to.  I've only watched it once through, so I haven't really digested it enough to say exactly what is bugging me yet.  Actually, I expected to disagree with her more, before watching.
My mistake, I should have looked a little further into it. I just remembered the post from a while back and looked it up to post it here. Of course, that post links to several other instances of her stealing artwork, so draw your own conclusions there.

Also if you thought I was referring to logical fallacies in Anita's video, I was actually talking about the "ThunderF00t" video posted earlier. Honestly, I never found anything wrong with what Anita said in her series. As far as I remember, all she ever said was that women are underrepresented as full characters in games and almost exclusively used as sex objects. It was all pretty vanilla, and I have no idea why there's so much debate about the videos themselves. I'm more annoyed by her questionable business ethics than anything.
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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2636 on: June 17, 2014, 04:58:29 am »

Well, I only watched the most recent videos, and I must say that if her points is "Women are underrepresented in meaningful role, leaving them only as cardboard, sexualized NPCs", she did a terrible job of getting it across, or maybe I'm just stupid. What I got was "Look, they're beating UP WOMEN!" which seemed stupid because in all of those games you're going to be beating up men in the same way.
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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2637 on: June 17, 2014, 07:40:11 am »

I just chime in with my typical, liberal conservative view (this time, its laissez-faire time, yay!).

You are trying to change things in completely wrong way. The people who make video games should be free to make games whatever they want them to be. And they want them to be good-selling. So if you want games to be non-sexist, you should make people view sexist games as bad games, not try and kick the sexism out of the games by... Well, any other means. It isn't a good idea to try and go on how the games are sexist - maybe they are, maybe they aren't, that's not the point. Go and tell people sexism is bad. They will stop buying sexist games, and people will stop making them. It's that simple.

DISCLAIMER:
I know some of you do what you can to advocate non-sexist games by buying them. That's a good idea, and I completely agree to this line of thinking.
I don't really like to have breasts shoved in my face when playing computer game, but I usually don't care either way. I also don't care if there are nude males in game, for the most part (Kane and Lynch 2).
I think that the rape is a capital crime, and as such should be met with capital punishment.
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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2638 on: June 17, 2014, 07:41:11 am »

He's making the assumption here, that the damsel in distress plotline is a given. That it's basically required; the only way to have this story take place. It could just as easily be the guy punching you in the face and taking a valued object; in fact, that would be just about the same in every way. Which is where the idea of objectification comes from. *gasp* Hey look it ties into itself like that! Weird, isn't it? Or hell, injecting you with a very slow-acting poison and taunting you with the antidote would work too. Oh look, more turning of the idea on it's ear; he's trying to use ad hominem to say that she's wrong because she doesn't view the character in the game as if it was a real-life person, but let me ask; do you? Yes, obviously if a loved one is hurt, you want to help them. But this isn't a loved one being hurt. This is a game, in which a character's loved one is being hurt. You have no attachment to them. Thus, they become a goal, not a loved one. Thus, they become an object, not a person.
Makes me think of the Donkey Kong Country games where the first had you rescuing a stolen banana hoard and the others your kidnapped friends (all male).

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Unless I failed at reading comprehension the update post says it's still ongoing.
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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2639 on: June 17, 2014, 07:58:55 am »

The art theft issue is resolved.  Check the most recent update.
Unless I failed at reading comprehension the update post says it's still ongoing.
Ahem.

Literally the top post on her Tumblr.


As for the rest, just responding to general arguments rather than any particular posts;

1) Putting the emphasis on women always speaking out makes a lot of assumptions about women's capacity to both speak and be heard. Especially in male dominated areas female voices are often unwelcome or ignored. And especially on topics of gender and offensive material, women are often brushed aside as overreacting or over-sensitive to particular instances and the general lessons ignored.

It's kinda disturbing the differences in responses I see when I make the exact same arguments that a woman has previously, both IRL and online. Even more so when you compare the responses to high profile men and women saying very similar things.

It shouldn't be that way, but it is. And guys speaking out can have a substantial role in changing it.

2) Talking about sexism in video games is a way of changing larger culture. It helps people explore and understand issues of sexism that are relevant to a range of media as well as real life. Saying "these things are sexist" and giving people the language to talk about it in a way that other people can immediately understand is a viable tactic in combating sexism at large. And even if it wasn't, video games are relevant to real life. The culture and industry surrounding them are as real as any other subculture or industry you care to think of, and I'd say that any member of a sexist subculture or industry has some responsibility towards fixing that.

Saying fix the culture first is ignoring that this is how we fix the culture. Or at least give the people within the culture the tools to make changes.
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