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[Rolepgeek]

Would you consider them more attractive than average for the setting? Do they have revealing clothing that doesn't fit their profession using logic, unneccessarily skintight clothing, or large, perky breasts? Etc. I could go on, but I think you should get the idea.

Also, I wouldn't count Kratos, since he's disfigured, and nor would I truly count Dwarf I wasn't talking about male power fantasies(why the fuck didn't you include Dragon Ball, by the way?), I was talking about sexualized men as main characters. Perhaps you didn't understand what I meant when I said pretty/handsome. I meant 'attractive to real life women'. I understand that, as a man, you have little idea of what that means(don't say I don't. I don't have a perfect idea, but I do have an idea, since I like guys too).

[sal880612m]

<snip>

I was on a forum once and someone took the standpoint that how women are represented in videogames is a syptom of a larger problem in reality. I tend to take this view on it, you want women to change in video games you need women in reality or at least the perception of women in reality to change.

Well, yes, except it's people in reality, not women. Right on perceptions though. It's pretty obvious that this is about changing culture and attitudes towards women at large.

Video games are an aspect of culture and influence it in turn. You can't separate the two. But sometimes some aspects of culture are easier to change than others. Video games being a relatively young and accessible industry it might be easier to impact them than other, larger, more established aspects.

I meant women need to change in the sense that they need to be more expressive about which behaviours are outright bullshit. A specific example of this a female relative of mine is a fan of is that if a female sleeps around or if she is even suspected to in some/many circles (I am not sure how prevalent this is because I have never been a part of a group that feels this way) men feel justified calling her a slut or tramp, all the while a man who does the same is not treated that way when they should be. Fact is the more person A lets person B do something the more acceptable person B will think that behaviour is. I don't think women are the only ones that need to change but that in this aspect the change needs to start with them.

I do get that video games are a part of culture and while I did look at a study on how many female gamers there were this did include things like bejeweled and facebook games. I am not saying there aren't females who play games or that they shouldn't be considered or that more wouldn't play if female leads were better, but I do think that if you are concerned about women being characters in their own right you need to only focus on games that actually have characters to get a grasp of who plays and who would play those games. Got sidetracked there. I am fairly certain any male dominated industry is going to be hard to get into and/or change. Last I heard the figure was about 90% male on the developing end, and when I was in school for Computer Science that was about the ratio. On what needs to be targeted and how effective it is going to be I think we will have to agree to disagree but I think there are more historical examples of larger more established parts being changed than there are of more isolated ones. Unless my history is way off it hasn't even been all that long since women weren't allowed to vote.

I know this comes across as jerkish and I get that that is the intention behind trying to get games to change but changing games may have an affect in making young females make the choice to be different than what is expected, but it does little or nothing about the current situation.

I think you are viewing this as an attempt at social engineering through video games. That's not it at all. I'd say that these are the main desirable goals;

1) Make video games an equal playing field where men and women are both welcome, as players, developers, critics, whatever.

2) Increase awareness of harmful sexist stereotypes and tropes present in all media by exploring them in video games.

3) Hope that this maybe results in a reduction in their use in mainstream games.

Spoiler: DISCLAIMER (click to show/hide)

"harmful tropes" is purely my term, not attributable to anyone else. I use it because I view the thoughtless use of said tropes as encouraging depictions of women in games that can be harmful in ways related through the various studies both linked in the recent reference links and in various others I've posted/read in the past.

1- This is a social issue in general, but instead of picking a field where the people coming in have an equal representation you have picked a field where figures (AFAIK) tend to show they don't. This makes it a dramatic mess if you try to enforce equal representation in hiring policy.

2- This makes sense but it ties into current perceptions. Whether anyone likes to admit it or not there are a large chunk of video game players who see no problems with the current status quo and will defend it because they don't see the negative effect in real life. If their sisters, mothers, girlfriends, friends made an issue of it they likely would.

3- I got nothing. If this is your stated goal continue on, best of luck.

Thinking about it I see how getting change in this area might create a precedent that could be used to help changes in other areas. I just don't think we are likely to see a change in this area if we don't see some of the above happen.

[Rolepgeek]

I meant women need to change in the sense that they need to be more expressive about which behaviours are outright bullshit. A specific example of this a female relative of mine is a fan of is that if a female sleeps around or if she is even suspected to in some/many circles (I am not sure how prevalent this is because I have never been a part of a group that feels this way) men feel justified calling her a slut or tramp, all the while a man who does the same is not treated that way when they should be. Fact is the more person A lets person B do something the more acceptable person B will think that behaviour is. I don't think women are the only ones that need to change but that in this aspect the change needs to start with them.

I do get that video games are a part of culture and while I did look at a study on how many female gamers there were this did include things like bejeweled and facebook games. I am not saying there aren't females who play games or that they shouldn't be considered or that more wouldn't play if female leads were better, but I do think that if you are concerned about women being characters in their own right you need to only focus on games that actually have characters to get a grasp of who plays and who would play those games. Got sidetracked there. I am fairly certain any male dominated industry is going to be hard to get into and/or change. Last I heard the figure was about 90% male on the developing end, and when I was in school for Computer Science that was about the ratio. On what needs to be targeted and how effective it is going to be I think we will have to agree to disagree but I think there are more historical examples of larger more established parts being changed than there are of more isolated ones. Unless my history is way off it hasn't even been all that long since women weren't allowed to vote.

So, I want to let you know what it seems like you're saying here.
What it seems like you're saying, at least to me, is that it's women's fault that they allow people to be sexist. Which in turn smarts of victim-blaming. You're saying that because they aren't standing up(except they are, that's what this whole feminist movement is, that's what this discussion topic is, that's what all this is) for themselves, that it's their own fault that people are being prejudiced against them. That's the same mentality that rapists who say 'well, they didn't stop me, so obviously they wanted it' use. Think about that for a second. Now think if you really want to have that mentality.

Do you know the biggest problem with that mentality? Yes, it has a kernel of truth; in order for change to happen, they have to stand up for themselves. Unfortunately, when they do, guess how some people react? They react with anger, with fear, lashing out and hitting women who try to speak for themselves, figuratively and literally. So it's no wonder why people don't want to try and change the status quo, when trying to change the status quo could result in them getting attacked for trying to have equality.

1- This is a social issue in general, but instead of picking a field where the people coming in have an equal representation you have picked a field where figures (AFAIK) tend to show they don't. This makes it a dramatic mess if you try to enforce equal representation in hiring policy.

2- This makes sense but it ties into current perceptions. Whether anyone likes to admit it or not there are a large chunk of video game players who see no problems with the current status quo and will defend it because they don't see the negative effect in real life. If their sisters, mothers, girlfriends, friends made an issue of it they likely would.

Thinking about it I see how getting change in this area might create a precedent that could be used to help changes in other areas. I just don't think we are likely to see a change in this area if we don't see some of the above happen.

1- This is an issue in general, and therefore it's useless to pick any specific example to try and start with, particularly not media which imparts messages and shapes how people think.

2- And so, of course, we should completely ignore it and leave it to their real-life female friends to help.


Also, have you ever considered why people think there aren't many female gamers? It's because gamers are sexist, and many will bully and abuse any women they see playing the game. That's where the whole 'get back in the kitchen' thing comes from, as far as I know.

[UltraValican]

Well its primarily and anime, and how is Dwarf a power fantasy and when dragon ball characters aren't?  We're on bay12 so I understand, we all want to be a glorious bearded, drunken bastards but still.

I still don't get what you mean(I fail to see how large breasts are inherently sexual), but here goes nothing

Ayumi (X-blades)
Blade Kitten
Bayonetta, I guess
Most Elven female characters Warcraft characters(Barring Maiev, though you can't tell what gender or even species she is under all that armor and robes)
Tomb Raider
Serena S(Ultionus: A tale of Petty Revenge)
This travesty
Akane the Kunoichi

That's all I got, pretty much.

[Vector]

Most men don't listen to us.

The men that do have an obligation to speak to other men. That's what being a good ally is. Leverage your power to demand better conditions for others.

[EnigmaticHat]

Bare chested male might be sexualized, on its own it will never be hyper sexualized.  In fact I'd say a topless woman isn't hyper sexualized either unless something else comes into play, although due to the whole above the waist nudity double standard thing (and the focus a lot of men put on breasts) topless women are pretty much always going to be explicitly sexual.

As a general rule, with a bare chested male character, it means one of two things: they're supposed to be attractive, or its supposed to show off their muscles.

Dante of DMC is a good example of a sexualized man, although even then I would say he only dips into hyper sexualized in a single scene out of all the games he's been in.  Full disclosure I don't have a PS and haven't played God of War, but I've heard a lot about it and I'd willing to bet that Kratos embodies the opposite trope: pure male power fantasy.

The rule of thumb when telling between the two: how much of the game is spent on something sexual (check the list below), and how much of it is spent demonstrating the character's ability to hurt people, seize control, or succeed at everything they do?  The first is sexualized, the second one is power fantasy.

A general checklist of what I'd define as hyper sexualized:

• A conventionally attractive body.  Sometimes implausibly so.  Sometimes to the point where "attractive" features like the hourglass figure are exaggerated to impossible proportions.
• Speaking in innuendos, in a voice that sounds seductive, making vocal grunts that sound like they would be made during sex, or having a personality specifically designed to press the buttons of some demographic or another.
• All of their physicality will be made with an eye towards sexiness.  This can be as simple as their walking animations showing off their ass, or as complicated as combat animations that mix sex and violence.
• Meta sexiness, like the camera having a crush on Miranda's butt someone, or bonus clothing/secrete scenes that show off their bodies.
• Hitting one or more common fetishes.  Catwoman is a solid example of this, pretty much all of her appearances anywhere will include at least three.

I can think of a common example of hyper sexualized male characters, but its not in video games so I wont talk about it.  The best example I have is whatever the fuck Voldo is from Soul Caliber, but thats probably targeted at gay men or freaking out straight men, or just being funny.  Its a little hard to tell.

There's no way I can not link this video.  Also ninjas, but I'm going to just ignore them because this thread can move fassst.

[Neonivek]

Most men don't listen to us.

The men that do have an obligation to speak to other men. That's what being a good ally is. Leverage your power to demand better conditions for others.

This is the sort of dialog that sort of makes me scratch my head and wonder why people bother IF that is what they honestly believe.

Cause trust me NO ONE CARES by association. You can fill a guy up with all the equality rights knowledge you want, but he isn't anymore convincing.

That made just about zero sense. You don't seem to be getting what they're saying. You're saying 'well, dogs can be characters too'. No. Not really. Yes, in Dragon Age: Origins one of the party members is a dog. How much depth is there to the dog? What are it's goals, it's dreams, it's ambitions? Cloud and Crono both have those. So does Samus, to a degree(Mario could certainly be replaced by a dog, for most of the games). The dog? The dog just has 'protect the master, get food'. If you aren't able to tell the difference between a narrative character, and a narrative dog, well...that's your own problem, but don't allow sexism to perpetuate just because of that

Crono and Cloud never speak for themselves in their respective game. The same goes with Samus in the vast majority of her games, the only exception being the game where she might as well have not even been there.

They could easily be replaced with a dog and lose nothing. Slap a tape recorder onto their body and there you go.

Also a dog has a full psychology... As do most mammals. I know most people like to make them VERY bestial to justify their treatment, but no.

Also just because I disagree with "you could replace the character with a dog" as a basis for sexism doesn't mean I am suddenly for sexism.

It would be like saying if I don't agree with Patriot Law that I am Anti-America and hate the USA. I am allowed to have disagreements, even fundamental ones, without going off the deep end.

Better yet you mentioned Dragon Age... How many characters act EXACTLY like the dog? Most of them? How many of them could be entirely replaced by your dog with a tape recorder giving stock phrases? Most of them (A FEW remain relevant)

The point isn't 'oh there are no female characters'. The point is; how many female characters are there, versus how many male characters? What is their role in the game? Are they established physical characters, or are they eye-candy? And yes, they can be eye-candy and established corporeal narrative characters at the same time, but they don't need to be, all the time, which is the current trend.

Yes but my statement was mostly that the trend you are seeing isn't as overwhelming as it appears as soon as you step out the shooters.

That's rather difficult, due to the large numbers of them. It's making the analogy of penis to breasts, in which case I can say Laura Croft, right off the bat. Whether it's out and flailing or not isn't the issue. The issue is that, how do you like being forced to, during every cutscene, where the artwork and character design is meant to draw attention to it, have your eyes drawn to a bulging erection in the man's skintight pants?

You are acting as if I like Breast Camera and it isn't the one thing that makes me groan constantly at Ghost in a Shell... or that the one thing I actively disliked about Soul Calibur 4, in spite of liking that game, is how EVERYONE's breast sizes grew a few sizes.

But what I am saying is mostly that. There is no direct parallel. People constantly use the penis as an example, but the penis' direct parallel isn't a woman's breasts and by HECK no female videogame character has ever had... THAT on full display... well unless it was a porn.

But Porn and "women's rights" have such a complicated relationship that you would go insane (MOSTLY because unlike Videogame depiction... There are MANY feminist views on porn, many of which contradict eachother, all active and shared between multiple everyday people at a time.) but my view on the whole ordeal is that it is completely and utterly unsolvable and shouldn't be touched by mortal hands.

---

Look I know I am saying a lot of things... but my arguments are mainly focused on how specific arguments are poor or need to be expanded to have any worth.

I am saying that "Replaced by a dog" isn't anywhere near as negative of a connotation as it tries to make it out to be simply because most characters could be replaced by a dog (as well as most main protagonists) and a dog still is a more rounded character then it could seem on the surface. Not that women aren't often put into valueless roles in videogames and never get important roles (though I think it happens WAY more then what some of you are implying.)

[Orange Wizard]

This is a relevant video.
I'm not sure if it's been linked to earlier, and there's no way I can be bothered reading through all 174 pages or this thread to find it.

[Neonivek]

This is a relevant video.
I'm not sure if it's been linked to earlier, and there's no way I can be bothered reading through all 174 pages or this thread to find it.

Not all of the points of this video I agree with. Some of it is rather fair, but as a whole it isn't an opinion I prescribe to.

Besides my favorite counter point to Anita has always been "More then a Damsel in a Dress"

[Rolan7]

Chrono used body language, mades decisions, and I think in some endings marries Marle.  His friends ask him questions and get meaningful answers.
He's mute, not a dog.

And I had to check, but Cloud isn't even a silent protagonist.

Samus explains the events of Metroid 2 in the Super Metroid intro, and has some cutscene dialog in Zero Mission and Metroid Fusion.  But granted she is mostly mute and a bit of a power fantasy.  She's one of the few power fantasies which happen to be female and not hyper-sexualized.

Which is why Other M and high-heels in Brawl are infuriating.  It may look like a non-issue, but it feels like the marketing teams can't allow even a single popular female role model to escape their touch.  The high-heels are just painfully dumb, but Other M was a drawn-out assassination of her entire established character, by the makers of JIGGLY BOOB FIGHTERS.

[Neonivek]

Chrono used body language, mades decisions, and I think in some endings marries Marle.  His friends ask him questions and get meaningful answers.
He's mute, not a dog

Dogs can do body language, dogs can take direction, and anyone can marry a dog.

---

Honestly the High heels don't even reach the top of the issues when it comes to Other M and sexism (which is mostly contained in how the series believes she would handle PTSD)

As I said, if you entire removed Samus from her own game, it would remain unchanged.

[Putnam]

The assassination was done by the director of Metroid, Super Metroid, Metroid Fusion and Metroid Zero Mission, Yoshio Sakamoto. He got a chance to write the story.

[Neonivek]

The assassination was done by the director of Metroid, Super Metroid, Metroid Fusion and Metroid Zero Mission, Yoshio Sakamoto. He got a chance to write the story.

It was honestly a complete mystery to me how this happened... but I guess the limitations, the fact that very little story could be put in the game, actually lead to him making better games. (I mean sure... Samus appeared in a bikini or tank top in one of them... but narratively it made sense... and no I am not making that up)

The second he gets full narrative control? Oww

A lot like George Lucas I guess, where he is great with most control but not full control.

But yeah Other M is a disaster on every front. If you were to eliminate gender and race from it? It still fails dramatically as a story. Eliminate continuity from it and treat it as a stand alone? It still is a terrible story.

[Rolan7]

I didn't know that the creator was involved :/  It was probably an executive decision based on marketing data, though.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by removing Samus from her games, or replacing Chrono with a dog.  I could go on about Samus's complex backstory established through cutscenes, Metroid Prime logs, and a origin-story manga.  She's an established character shown to have emotions, particularly in Metroid Fusion.

And Chrono doesn't just *take* directions like a dog, his friends talk to him and he chooses what to do.  At one point he breaks out of prison and finds his friends, by himself.  Nobody ever treats him like an animal...  So what is it you're saying?

Hinjo treats Cloud like an animal at one point, but that's to illustrate how monstrous the evil villain doctor is, and how vulnerable Cloud is emotionally.

[Putnam]

Tank top was Metroid 2, which didn't make plot sense (it was a "fast played" ending) except I guess as a reference to Alien; bikini was Metroid 1, where it was a whole 5 pixels or so (again, fast ending). Other M was an interesting case of character assassination because almost all of the character assassination was in respect to her relationship with another character; she was completely subservient to someone she wasn't working for out of some misguided (but not presented as such) sense of respect for him, letting him prevent her from using completely harmless upgrades: this game takes place directly after Super Metroid and she has no lost her items, but he tells her not to use Varia Suit, Gravity Suit and Space Jump regardless and she just accepts that despite it not being a rational thing at all, this from a woman who has at least twice managed to singlehandedly take down an entire enemy stronghold and thus clearly has some tactical knowledge that would make her realize that you don't have to do something just because a man tells you to in a stern voice...

I don't like that game's story.

I didn't know that the creator was involved :/  It was probably an executive decision based on marketing data, though.

He said that he cried at the beautiful story he had created when he saw the cutscenes come to life. I have doubts he didn't mean it.